Author Topic: Bombing of Israel/Sandy's devastation in Caribbean  (Read 11536 times)

Online Jerry Gosselin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
Re: Bombing of Israel
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2012, 07:39:24 PM »
I am in shock and awe!  Are you telling us that an important banking family, together with the British,  could be the reason, in a round about way, for the terrible happenings in Palestine at present.

Well the influence that Walter Rothschild, at least, played in persuading the British government to agree to the Zionist plan is fairly obvious, not least because the Balfour Declaration was addressed to him!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Rothschild,_2nd_Baron_Rothschild#Zionism_and_the_Balfour_Declaration

As for my comments about the earlier funding of Jewish settlements in Palestine in the late 1800's and onwards, I was quoting from general memory from a book I read last year, so there is a possibility I could be proved wrong about the Rothschilds, in particular, giving money to such ventures. That book is probably not available online, so I can't provide a source. I don't have time presently to search for alternative sources on the web that might give a better insight into exactly who were funding these early Palestinian settlements. Once the Google spider picks up my Israel comments in a day or two, we may then start attracting some professional Israel lobbyists from abroad, who I am quite sure will be more than willing to provide alternative sources proving me completely wrong on this... and everything else too! That's the way the lobby works, after all- no comment criticising Israel is allowed to go unanswered. They have people all around the world monitoring the web 24/7 to put this into effect.

News update: With regard to Israel's attack on a four-story house in Gaza yesterday, which reportedly killed 12 civilians (including an 80-year old woman and 4 small children), the Israeli military have now admitted that they mistakenly bombed the home due to a "technical error". Well that makes it alright then, doesn't it?  ::)

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-gaza-civilians-killed-due-to-faulty-air-strike.premium-1.478887#

Offline Lokel_Yokel

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bombing of Israel/Sandy's devastation in Caribbean
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2012, 08:06:01 PM »
I have travelled the world a fair bit (No ME though - apart from a couple of stopovers enroute somewhere nice!)......one of the things that surprised me when first travelling outside Europe was that all foreigners were not simply like "us" except for the lingo and eating funny food  :P. In many places the locals think very differently (not better or worse - just different). and in some of those places the collective thinking and norms of behaviour would (in "our" terms) be called.......mental.

From the Israelis I have met, the impression I get is that they are on that mental end of things.............of course living where they do that does kinda make sense  ;D Sometimes I do wonder if there is also something in the water in the ME or if it is just the sun....................
Say No to the Woo!

Online Jerry Gosselin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
Re: Bombing of Israel
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2012, 07:20:57 PM »
Quote
"I would say that most of the people that were hit in Gaza deserved it, as they were armed terrorists." - Israeli Deputy Foreign Minster, Danny Ayalon, quoted by WNYC.

When the ceasefire finally took effect last Wednesday after eight days of intense Israeli bombing encompassing more than 1,500 strikes, the toll was 162 Palestinians and 5 Israelis dead. According to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, 91 of the Palestinians who were killed were civilians and at least 34 of them were children. According to UNICEF, hundreds of children were wounded, including at least 88 under the age of 5 years. 10,000 Palestinians were internally displaced according to the UN. Many of the targets of the Israeli strikes were clearly economic and not military, such as the bombing of the home of the Gaza Bank director and a main north-south bridge. Journalists were also targetted by Israel. Last Tuesday, 3 alAqsa journalists were killed by strikes on their cars. Reporters Without Borders called it a "war crime">:(

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/21/gaza-conflict-fierce-fighting-clinton-seeks-truce
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 07:49:15 PM by Jerry Gosselin »

Offline Calimachon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1503
  • Gender: Female
  • http://www.amnesty.org.uk/
Re: Bombing of Israel/Sandy's devastation in Caribbean
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2012, 07:58:25 PM »
It looks as though if the West continue to support the Zionist movement there will be no peace until the Zionists have destroyed the Palestinians.  I read a website today that actually referred to a Lord Montague  and Lord  Curzon (who were Jews) and his wish that the West in1917 should not support the Zionnist Movement.

" Montagu and Curzon were overruled. Lloyd George, Balfour and Lord Milner (often regarded as the author who actually drafted the letter), threw their weight behind the proposal. At the San Remo conference in April 1920, the League of Nations incorporated the commitment to establish a Jewish national home into the terms of Britain’s mandate to govern Palestine. Palestinian Arab resentment towards this development was immediate and expressed in the Nebi Musa riots."

http://www.workersliberty.org/blogs/paulhampton/2012/11/02/anniversary-balfour-declaration

The Balfour Declaration stood for no more than finding a home for the Jews and an excuse for blatant  ethnic cleansing and for taking NO prisoners.  We see this happening time and time again.

Cali
TOMORROW (Noun) = A mystical land where 99% of all human productivity, motivation an achievement is stored

Online Jerry Gosselin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
Re: Bombing of Israel
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2012, 09:10:14 PM »
Something very refreshing happened on this week's Question Time (BBC1, Thursday 22nd November 2012), a programme that I do not normally bother to watch because I have already had my lifetime's worth of listening to the 3 Establishment Party representatives pretending that they vehemently disagree with each other when actually their policies on the big issues are nearly always indistinguishable.

The BBC invited a columnist from The Independent, Owen Jones, to be on the panel.

A question was then asked by a member of the audience- did the panel think that Israel was justified in its bombing of Gaza?

It should be explained from the outset that it is a long-held tradition of British politics that the representatives of the 3 Establishment parties (Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat) must not openly challenge British Foreign Office policy of more than 90 years standing on this issue, namely that Britain is an honest, neutral broker between the Jews and the Arabs, which is constantly striving towards the goal of a negotiated settlement that recognises the rights of both sides. It is also forbidden for frontbenchers of any of the 3 Establishment parties to openly condemn Israel for any act of agression (although expressions of mere regret are acceptable), but they can (and should) condemn the Palestinian side for any acts of retaliation against Israel, which ideally should be described as "terrorist" activity. The false impression should also be given that the two sides are equal parties with the same military, economic and diplomatic strength, although nothing could be further from the truth.

Sure enough, former Liberal Democrat leader Charles Kennedy MP set the mood of the 'debate'  :P by completely obeying these rules. His opening sentence tells you all you need to know:

Quote
Well, I think the line the British government have taken has been the correct one on this, I agree with it, which is that Israel has got a right to defend itself...

His speech was greeted by total silence from the audience. Then Owen Jones was asked to give his views. I had never heard of him before but was so heartened by the passion, eloquence and factual knowledge of his speech that I have taken the time to transcribe it in full below:

Quote
Obviously disappointed by that response Charles, in all honesty [audience applause]. Let’s be absolutely clear about what happened. Firstly, this whole idea that Gaza, that Hamas broke the ceasefire is just not true. In fact it was broken after in October, Israel killed 15 Palestinian fighters, they shot dead a mentally-disabled Palestinian, they killed another 13-year old in an intrusion and when there was an attempt to actually get a ceasefire- negotiations were ongoing- that is when they assassinated Ahmed al-Jaabari, completely ending those ceasefire talks. Now it is often said- and Barack Obama made this point- he said ‘What country on Earth would tolerate rockets being fired at them?’ I ask you this: What people on Earth would tolerate a siege which stops basic supplies getting in [audience applause], an occupation, a 45-year old occupation, a brutal occupation at that, illegal settlements all over the West Bank which are in total violation of international law and what we’ve seen in the course of this onslaught are the deaths of 158 Palestinians, at least 30 of whom are children, and I don’t want to just go into statistics... I will give you one example of one of those children: Omar Mashhrawi, he was 11-months old, he was a little boy, the son of a BBC journalist and he was killed in a so-called ‘targeted strike’. Now we all want a secure and lasting peace. When we have Israeli Ministers, like the Interior Minister calling for Gaza to be sent back to the middle ages, when in the last offensive we had another Minister calling for a holocaust to be inflicted on Gaza, when we have the son of Ariel Sharon, who wrote in the Jerusalem Post, talking about how Nagasaki and Hiroshima were possible solutions to be inflicted, when we have those people, we won’t get a secure peace, but the way we will get it, Arabs and Jews alike, to end the occupation, end the siege of Gaza and dismantle the illegal settlements and finally have a just settlement for the Palestinian people, ensuring peace for Arabs and Jews and the region as a whole.” [loud and sustained audience applause, with some whoops of joy]

We were then treated to the views of the other 2 Establishment parties. Firstly, Iain Duncan Smith MP, Work and Pensions Secretary, Conservative, who tried to strike a conciliatory tone (Britain as the 'honest broker' scenario):

Quote
...We should actually pledge ourselves, in the west, with America and the American President, to get behind this and now really find a solution to the two-state problem and get both sides talking to each other...

His speech was greeted by very lukewarm applause from just a handful of audience members.

Labour's Shadow Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper MP, then had to say exactly the same thing but make it sound kind of different:

Quote
The immediate trigger of what happened, obviously, was that rocket attacks on Israel. Of course Israelis should be able to live in security and not have to endure the fear from rocket attacks...

Her speech was deservedly greeted by total silence... but at least she gets to keep her front bench job, which she wouldn't have if she had dared to go off-script.

Then Owen Jones was asked to respond to a question from a member of the audience, who had asked whether the panel thought a two-state solution was still viable, given that more than half a million Israeli settlers were now living in the Palestinian West Bank. Here is his reply:

Quote
There are two possible solutions: one is to have a federal solution where you have equal rights for both Arabs and Jews. That seems to many people obviously far-fetched but they did say that about South Africa back in the day. Otherwise you have to dismantle the settlements, enforce international law, but what has to happen, because the point is Britain supports, as other western countries do, they’ve supported and armed Israel to the teeth, they’re not acting as honest brokers, they have to use their pressure to force Israel to give in and give justice to the Palestinian people. [mild audience applause]

Owen also rocked the boat later on when responding to questions about votes for prisoners and the benefits cap (causing Iain Duncan Smith to completely lose his cool with him on the latter subject). I recommend checking Owen out. Here is a link:

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/author/owen-jones/

That episode of Question Time will be available to view on the i-Player until this Friday. The question about the Israeli attacks is asked about 25 minutes into the programme. The link is here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01p2wbj/Question_Time_22_11_2012/
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 12:42:31 AM by Jerry Gosselin »

Online Jerry Gosselin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
Re: Bombing of Israel
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2012, 11:16:02 PM »
It looks as though if the West continue to support the Zionist movement there will be no peace until the Zionists have destroyed the Palestinians.  I read a website today that actually referred to a Lord Montague  and Lord  Curzon (who were Jews) and his wish that the West in1917 should not support the Zionnist Movement.

I followed your link, Cali. I feel that I must also reproduce one paragraph below. The problem for me is that the Balfour Declaration was such an irrational and illogical decision that I find it very hard to put it eloquently into words for the benefit of those who know nothing about it. However, I really like the quote below, apparently attributed to Edward Said, if I read it correctly, which goes a long way to explaining it succinctly:

Quote
The novelist Arthur Koestler wrote that the Balfour declaration was one nation promising another nation the land of a third nation. Similarly Edward Said argued that it was a prime example of “the moral epistemology of imperialism”. The declaration was made: “(a) by a European power, (b) about a non-European territory, (c) in flat disregard of both the presence and the wishes of the native majority resident in the territory, and (d) it took the form of a promise about this same territory to another foreign group, so that this foreign group might, quite literally, make this territory a national home for the Jewish people” (The Question of Palestine, 1979).

Yes, I knew about Edwin Montagu's strong opposition to Zionism. Although he knew he couldn't stop the Balfour Declaration, he succeeded in making significant amendments to it. The original text had read "Palestine should be reconstituted as the National Home of the Jewish people." After Montagu's intervention, it was changed to say "the establishment in Palestine of a Home for the Jewish people." This is part of Lord Montagu's stated opposition to a Jewish homeland at the time:

Quote
When the Jews are told that Palestine is their national home, every country will immediately desire to get rid of its Jewish citizens, and you will find a population in Palestine driving out its present inhabitants, taking all the best in the country, drawn from all quarters of the globe, speaking every language on the face of the earth, and incapable of communicating with one another except by means of an interpreter.

Although Montagu's fears about the forced expulsion of the Jews from tolerant western countries like Britain were not realised, he proved to be devastatingly correct with regard to the Jewish populations living in middle eastern Arab countries like Egypt, Iraq etc. After the founding of the state of Israel in 1948, those Jews were quickly blamed by the native Arab populations for Zionism, had to endure terrible hostility and discrimination and were eventually all forced to flee, with many of them settling in Israel. For example, in 1948, the Jewish population in Egypt numbered some 75,000 but by 2004, there were less than 100 remaining.  :o

Did you know, however, that Montagu's own cousin, the pro-Zionist Jew, Viscount Herbert Samuel, had also been in the cabinet during WWI, rising to Home Secretary in 1916, but losing his position when Prime Minister Asquith was toppled in favour of Lloyd George? Samuel took the opposite view to Montagu- as early as November 1914, he went as far as circulating a memorandum to his cabinet colleagues entitled 'The Future of Palestine', calling for Palestine to be annexed to the British Empire and then made a homeland for the Jewish people.

As a reward, the British made him the first High Commissioner of Palestine from 1920, a move that was condemned by General Allenby (who regarded it as a violation of both military law and the Hague Convention). Major-General Sir Louis Bols, Chief Adminstrator of Palestine from June 1919 to June 1920, who signed over power to Samuel, described the feelings of the native Muslim and Christian population about the news that the British had chosen a Zionist Jew to rule the territory:

Quote
They are convinced that he will be a partisan Zionist and that he represents a Jewish and not a British Government.

More here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Samuel,_1st_Viscount_Samuel#Political_career
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 02:18:35 PM by Jerry Gosselin »

Online Jerry Gosselin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
Re: Bombing of Israel/
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2012, 12:55:17 AM »
I have now managed to find more details about the 11-month old baby killed in an Israeli 'surgical strike', referred to by Owen Jones on Question Time. He was Omar Mashhrawi, the son of BBC Gaza Bureau employee, Jehad Mashhrawi. Jehad's sister-in-law was also killed in the atrocity; "We still haven't found her head", he said. His brother is also critically ill in hospital with massive burns. Read the full article here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20466027

Also mentioned in the above article is another 6-year old Palestinian victim:

Quote
Jehad's baby Omar was probably the first child to die in this latest round of violence.

Among the last was a six-year-old boy, Abdul Rahman Naeem, who was killed by an Israeli attack just hours before the ceasefire was announced.

Abdul Rahman's father, Dr Majdi, is one of the leading specialist doctors at Gaza City's Shifa Hospital.

The first he knew of his son's death was when he went to treat a patient, only to find it was his own boy.

Apparently, Dr Majdi had not seen Abdul Rahman for days. He had been too busy dealing with the wounded.

Offline Calimachon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1503
  • Gender: Female
  • http://www.amnesty.org.uk/
Re: Bombing of Israel/
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2012, 02:28:16 PM »
I have now managed to find more details about the 11-month old baby killed in an Israeli 'surgical strike', referred to by Owen Jones on Question Time. He was Omar Mashhrawi, the son of BBC Gaza Bureau employee, Jehad Mashhrawi. Jehad's sister-in-law was also killed in the atrocity; "We still haven't found her head", he said. His brother is also critically ill in hospital with massive burns. Read the full article here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20466027

Also mentioned in the above article is another 6-year old Palestinian victim:

Thank you for the link but of course you realise that the Israeli stance of why the children of
Gaza are being killed is that they believe that Palestinians don't look after their children and allow them to occupy the frontline in an attempt to curry sympathy with onlookers.  I don't believe this to be true but that is the propoganda that they are using.

I have started researching the ruling elite in Britain shortly before and at the time the Balfour Declaration came into being and I am astonished and shocked at what I am learning about the social habits of the elite at the time and can only wonder if this kind of behaviour can be evidenced today, even in our own tiny island. 

http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2012/04/sexy-war-leader.html  Remembering the terrible Jeremy Thorpe incident I am not easily wooed by any political party but the author of this site seems to have some very good sources.

Cali
TOMORROW (Noun) = A mystical land where 99% of all human productivity, motivation an achievement is stored

Offline Chevalier Blanc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1836
Re: Bombing of Israel/Sandy's devastation in Caribbean
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2012, 03:16:07 PM »
You can bet your last dollar on the elite still behaving today as they were years ago.
Just look how the elite treat the people of our Island. We are the fodder for them to make their money and keep them in their very expensive houses and way of life.
Do you think the likes of walker and co worry about us? They see this island as a money making machine for them and we the busy little bees bring the honey to them.
Collectively they are known as the "establishment party" and why party? Simple, because they are enjoying themselves off our backs.

Online Jerry Gosselin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
Re: Bombing of Israel
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2012, 08:03:05 AM »
The UN General Assembly has voted by 138 to 9 to grant the Palestinians 'non-member observer state' status. Prior to the vote, more than 130 countries had already granted the Palestinians the rank of a sovereign state and the Palestinians had said they had been hoping to win the votes of 150 to 170 countries in order to highlight the isolation of the US and Israel. Therefore wild celebrations would hardly seem to be in order, but who can blame the Palestinian people for making the most of something largely symbolic like this? They have precious little else to be joyful about. More information here (written before the General Assembly vote):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13701636

One of the potentially more significant outcomes of this vote is that it increases the chances of the Palestinians eventually being able to join the International Criminal Court. If this were to become a reality, it is possible that they might then push for the ICC to investigate possible war crimes committed by Israel during the Gaza Massacre (a 3-week Israeli military assault on the territory starting on 27th December 2008 which killed up to 1,417 Palestinians, wounded 5,303 and resulted in 50,800 Gaza residents being displaced). They could also accuse Israel of violating the Geneva Convention by establishing settlements on occupied territory.

Let us not forget that in 1947, the UN voted to partition Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states, although the Arabs rejected this.

What is both remarkable and truly disturbing is to compare a map of the area that the UN designated for the Palestinians back in 1947 with a map showing how much land the Palestinians actually occupy today. The image below, in four parts, clearly reveals the tragedy of the Palestinians since the Second World War. A comparison of maps 1 and 2 shows that the Palestinians were robbed of land by the UN partition plan of 1947, so it is no surprise that they rejected a Palestinian state based on those borders outlined on map 2. By comparison, the demands of the Palestinans today are for a much more modest state based on the borders in map 3- yet the Israelis cannot even agree to that, even though much of the Palestinian land they snatched between 1948 and 1967 was achieved through military might and the terror of what we now call ethnic cleansing, typified by the Deir Yassin Massacre*:

http://nabisalehsolidarity.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/four-panel-map.jpg

* The Deir Yassin massacre of 1948: http://www.deiryassin.org/
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 08:32:22 AM by Jerry Gosselin »

Offline Calimachon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1503
  • Gender: Female
  • http://www.amnesty.org.uk/
Re: Bombing of Israel/Sandy's devastation in Caribbean
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2012, 02:09:06 PM »
It would appear that peace negotiations will be scuppered by both parties due to refugee status of the Palestinians and of the Jews pre 1948, in 1948 and in 1967 on behalf of the Palestinians and during 1948 with regard to the Jews.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11104284

and from a Jewish perspective:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19714796

"We stayed in Baghdad until 1951, when we moved to Israel," Vardika Shabo says. "They hated the Jews in Iraq. They killed many of us in 1948. They took our belongings and burned our houses."

This could hamper peace negotiations for years.

Cali
TOMORROW (Noun) = A mystical land where 99% of all human productivity, motivation an achievement is stored

Offline Lokel_Yokel

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bombing of Israel/Sandy's devastation in Caribbean
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2012, 04:42:25 PM »
I favour the THREE state solution..........

- Palestine gets recognised by the UN (including the US and EU) as an independent State (same as Israel)......within the 1967 Borders.

- Initially as a UN protecterate (for say 10 years / until the Palestinians have shown a ability to control themselves, including no attacks on Israel and have shown - the ability for the State to function)......the UN protecterate status would restrict the Palestinians ability to act internationally (and to arm themselves)....in exchange for which the UN would send in Peacekeepers, including US and EU troops especially to man the Israel border and checkpoints (in conjunction with the Palestinians). Initially the Courts (especially when dealing with the Jews / Settlements) would have UN control / supervision to stop any barmy ideas!

- Israel gets to keep it's wall (to be fair, it does seem to be working) - until they are happy to take it down. The price of that is they get charged rent on the Palestinian land behind the wall - collected from tax levies on goods exported and paid to the new Palestinian State.

- Gaza becomes a semi-automonous region of Palestine.....but the Palestinian State does not get punished for any stupidity coming from there.

- Jerusalem becomes the official capital of both Israel and Palestine - albeit for the Palestinians the administrative capital is elsewhere. (the stick is that the EU / US can have a joint embassy for both - up to Israel if it wants neither!).

- the existing Settlements get to remain, except they are charged rent (on an escalating basis over the years) and tax on activities - Non-payment and fines for non-compliance get recovered from Israel direct via additional taxes on exports to the West.

- Settlements can have Israeli Army outposts, but only if they also get UN forces with Palestinian representatives. Whilst a UN protecterate a plan is devised / negotiated for some (many?) of the Settlements to be given up by Israel, even if that involves economically blockading (free movement of people - just not of goods).

- The people inside the Settlements are subject to Palestinian law - albeit not enforced within the Settlements, but the laws backed by the UN when they impact elsewhere (i.e. if the Settlors start shooting at the locals), and they get enforced by UN forces - even if that only amounts to sentences being suspended and offenders being deported to Israel.

- for the resources (especially water), the UN declares a doctrine of "fair usage" and provides a forum (court?) that decides based on the principle of sharing - decisions enforced by financial penalties.

- The Palestinian State gets international aid (from US / EU and Arab oil states) that is designated as compensation for having the Settlements / less than fair use of resources.

- The Palestinian State agrees not to militarily enforce it's border with Israel - which is recognised by the UN as both the border of the Palestine (on the 1967 map) but also as an internal border for a single state (see below!).

- The Palestinian State agrees to limit it's armed forces - in exchange for a defence Guarantee from UN and US / EU (kinda like South Korea).

- The Palestinian State recognises the State of Israel as the Jewish Homeland and to never seek to expel them.

- The Palestinians get associate membership of the EU (trade concessions), with the prospect of further benefits depending on performance.......ideally would want Palestine to become a route into the EU for Israeli goods! (goods exported direct from Israel subject to higher tarrifs!). The idea being to make Palestine have a cash value to Israel (some stereotypes are based on fact!).

- The UN sets a timetable for the Palestinians to get the above (and no doubt other stuff), so not everything on day 1 and some things come simply from time and others only when specific conditions are met (not all simply about not attacking Israel - as much about good governance).

- The UN sets up a number of Forums for Israel and Palestine to discuss various matters (security co-operation / resources / single state etc etc) the idea being that matters can be sorted individually, if wanted.

- on the "right to return" - individual Palestinians get compensated for property losses (in exchange for giving up claims) and those with no property also get money (Pensions?) and simply from the fact of getting own State. However the "right to return" claim remains - except the Palestinian State agrees that it gets redefined as being only when the Promised land gets re-united in peace (see below) and is not specific to any actual property.

and now the 3rd State angle!
 
- The Palestinian State agrees to seek to join Israel in becoming a single state! - however only by mutual consent. Initially the UN plan is that both sides must vote by 75% (plus?!) and that the first vote won't happen for 50 years! (the idea being that both sides can still wet dream about one country - and in a few hundred years it might actually happen!).
 
- The UN recognises the Israel / Palestine Federation (probably need a better name!) as an entity - kinda like a mini starter EU except with none of the details worked out (that for both of them to agree over coming decades / centuries!) - it could form the basis of a future country, or not.
 
 
The Key with the above is that none of the things need the consent of Israel (facts on the ground! and in the UN) - albeit co-operation would be nice. and likely that would happen over time as peace and prosperity slowly happens (Hell, if the Germans and the Jews can get over their differences then it is possible!)..........IMO once both sides get used to the economic benefits then peace will follow. IMO eventually will have free movement of people between Israel and Palestine, with the wall becoming a historic monument.
 
The other Key is the US wanting peace - my bet is that Obama would like to do something...........time will tell.
 
 
 
 



 
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 05:00:55 PM by Lokel_Yokel »
Say No to the Woo!

Online Jerry Gosselin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
Re: Bombing of Israel
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2013, 08:33:00 AM »
An interesting development in Washington this week, with President Obama nominating Chuck Hagel as his next Defence Secretary. It is interesting if only because Hagel once made a reference to the "Jewish lobby", thus infuriating the Congress, which has long been totally under the spell of Israel:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/07/obama-hagel-defence-brennan-cia

One shouldn't start getting one's hopes up for a just and permanent settlement in the Middle East based on a single throwaway remark by a politician, but Obama's decision to nominate this man might indicate that he finally intends to start exerting a bit of pressure on Israel now that he is free from the worry of any more re-election campaigns.

If anyone doubts the stranglehold that Israel holds over the US Congress, these two articles from separate sources should be somewhat enlightening:

http://original.antiwar.com/alison-weir/2011/08/10/israel-lobby-dominates-congress/

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/israeli-knesset-member-seeds-anti-palestinian-legislation-in-congress.html

It is worth pointing out that Mondoweiss (the 2nd of these 2 links) is a news website that says it is "devoted to covering American foreign policy in the Middle East, chiefly from a progressive Jewish prospective." One of its aims is to "foster the movement for greater fairness and justice for Palestinians in American foreign policy."  :o

If only the people at Mondoweiss represented the vast majority of Jews....

Offline Lokel_Yokel

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bombing of Israel/Sandy's devastation in Caribbean
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2013, 06:45:25 PM »
I have had a strong suspicion (since Obama was first elected) that he will recognise Palestine as a State - it might come with a few catches (plus a few sops to the Israelis - mostly about not insisting they actually stop the occupation!). Obviously that won't go down well with the Israelis or the Republicans - but in the US could even be seen as good political tactical move as the Republicans would be guaranteed to come out frothing at the mouth (even more than usual!) - that always plays well to  their own hardcore but keeps 'em away from the centre.

My ME peace plan  ;D :-

1) Jerusalem as the Palestinian political Capital - but elsewhere as the administrative one.
2) Palestine gets recognised within the 1967 borders - subject to their agreement that the borders will be settled by peaceful means only (in practice both sides will likely want a bit of tweeking).
3) The Settlements are removed by negotiation only - but in the meantime they get charged rent / taxes (collected on Israeli exports!).
4) Limits on the Palestinian armed forces.
5) a 10 year transitional roadmap where the Palestinian State is a UN Protecterate, with certain State functions done in conjunction with / under the supervision of the UN - including the Judiciary and defence forces and all interactions with the Israelis, especially on resources.
6) A declaration (in the Palestinian constitution?) that the goal is to seek a one State Solution with Israel, but only by peaceful means and subject to 90% of both States agreeing - with the first vote in 50 years time!
7) massive aid into Palestine - including via the UN, some of which is specifically tied to the Israeli Settlements and recouped via a specific import tax (into US and EU) of Israeli goods. The idea being to make the settlements an asset of Palestine. (the US can of course compensate the Israelis, if they want to).
8) UN troops on the border with Israel and the international ones - with Palestinian forces.
 
The key with the above is that none of them need the approval of the Israelis (although co-operation would be better, but that can come later) - facts on the ground can work both ways!
 
 
I await my Nobel prize  8) .
Say No to the Woo!

Offline Calimachon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1503
  • Gender: Female
  • http://www.amnesty.org.uk/
Re: Bombing of Israel/Sandy's devastation in Caribbean
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2013, 11:43:57 PM »
I suspect that the Palestinian administrative headquarters has been well out of the area for many years and is probably in Malta.

Cali
TOMORROW (Noun) = A mystical land where 99% of all human productivity, motivation an achievement is stored