Author Topic: Another Fantasy or just a Bad Dream ?  (Read 6090 times)

Offline Sarah Ferguson

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Re: Another Fantasy or just a Bad Dream ?
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2014, 04:58:32 AM »
The original water tank tests for the reclamation west of albert showed that the reclamation p[roposed wpould significantly reduce the scouring action of the tides round St Aubins Bay. (I was informed of this by a thoroughly reliable source.)  As a result the nitrates are not swept out to sea but remain to fertilise the beach.

Offline boatyboy

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Re: Another Fantasy or just a Bad Dream ?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2015, 11:03:25 PM »
The story of Another Fantasy or just a bad dream. The title is a reference to the infamous sponsorship of public  money given to a fantasy film that was granted  without due diligence and appears lost. Just a bad dream refers to an idea by Mr Pierre Horsfall which was fifty years out of date, and even then of dubious merit. Still it was only the publics money.

Please go to the top of page (1) for the start of the story, as they were warned this was not the way spend tax revenues and the full history and short report sent to Mr Horsefall can be read.

In order to try be reasonable, and after a presentation to the St Helier Rates assembly by Pierre Horsfall, hand in hand with reading the exciting and colourful brochure produced to sell the idea of a Marine Lake, the assembly voted £100,000 towards the refurbishment of the old West Park Pool. Another £100,000 from SoJDC and another £100,000 from the tourism fund therefore £200,000 was given without public consultation and a further new £100,000 of St Helier rate payers money may be on it's way in £20,000 lumps  ???

The Bosdet foundation have pledged through a trust to give £50,000 per year and run commercial hiring of canoes etc.

The latest.

It appears this story is far from over. More of why the brochure has been ripped off the internet by  " someone " which is interesting because it must have cost a lot to produce.  Google Marine Lake Jersey or words similar and you will not get the original shown below.The Brochure names name’s of of professional watersports people several of whom I have spoken with. I have permission to use those names and will do once I have spoken to others in order to complete the jigsaw.

Thanks to planetjersey's IT,  all is not lost, in fact it is very much alive and kicking. What is important in this brochure is the hard glossy sell and falsehoods, when you look at the brochure, which has been returned to the internet, you will see all the names,  the associations, the endorsements the way it is written showing you reader what a wonderful super duper idea, for the disabled, for sailing juniors, indeed for everyone,  but there is a problem and the sea lettuce is only part of it.

Please click on link.

What you get in it’s place.

Notice all the sailing for kids and the disabled facilities seem to have been removed, as I mentioned in my report to Mr Horsefall ( which was circulated ) you cannot mix novice sailors or windsurfers with swimmers and snorkelers on a confined pond.


It is not a  “ public “ beach,

You see much of it is a fantasy, as an example Deputy Higgins when asked did not realise that he was named. If fact several people who wish to distance themselves from this disaster which is the Marine Lake were named in the brochure, without their permission.

It is rather like the recent Port Galots fiasco. A development just pushing ahead claiming to have public consultation and approval from many,  when it clearly did not. 

This story is far from over, and it will be you and I reader, who will be paying.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 12:19:10 AM by boatyboy »

Offline boatyboy

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Re: Another Fantasy or just a Bad Dream ?
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2015, 05:34:01 AM »
Sadly I have been proven correct with the Bosdet Charity threatening to pull out next year. The sea lettuce is a nuisance, but only one of several issues with that beach and pool.

Another waste of public money ( £310,000 and counting ) I am afraid and it gives me no pleasure to write that.

This is the very expensive brochure that the States put up and then ripped it down ( trying to hide it ) a couple of weeks after getting an honest report as there was some miss- reporting regarding the so called sponsors and supporters. This includes Deputy Higgins who had no idea his name had been used, and obviously had not given permission. He was not the only person or organisation.

It's weak replacement is at the link below. Notice most of the supporters and clubs names have been removed, see " about " in the sub menu  ???

To end - will rate payers of St Helier still be expected to pay £20,000 a year in maintenance, if the Bosdet Charity pull out ?

Conversely if they stay how much will the States be expected to spend in cleaning with contractors for a facility that is in the wrong place. Given Havre des Pas, offers a better and cleaner pool but also suffers with abysmal parking.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 06:00:07 AM by boatyboy »

Offline man in the street

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Re: Another Fantasy or just a Bad Dream ?
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2015, 10:21:23 PM »
I would love to see a schedule of work for the maintenance.
It's underwater for half of the year,plus foul weather days.
Back in the day the parish used to scrub the walkway round the pool to keep the weed off ,now and again.
I should imagine the chemicals they used , but worked, are now banned.
 Still sounds like nice work if you can get it ;)

Offline Chevalier Blanc

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Re: Another Fantasy or just a Bad Dream ?
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2015, 03:56:04 PM »
Lime was used and the Harbour Works used to do the maintenance on the pool including the sluice gate and i know because i have done work on the gate back in the 60's.

Offline man in the street

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Re: Another Fantasy or just a Bad Dream ?
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2015, 10:44:43 PM »
I must of watched you do the work  cb
Great days ,sadly gone.

Offline boatyboy

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Re: Another Fantasy or just a Bad Dream ?
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2015, 12:31:14 AM »

TTS if I remember absorbed the skilled engineers from the harbour workshops.

How repairing the sluice gates ( which needed doing ) and repairing a wall with concrete ( and repairing the gates inhouse TTS ) ever game to over £250,000 squid is beyond belief. The other £70,000 must have been spent on paying Howard Le Cornu Consultants, and the very posh mostly fabricated with tosh WEB site that you can see below.

Oh how easy it is to spend somebody else's money ?


Offline boatyboy

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Re: Another Fantasy or just a Bad Dream ?
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2015, 04:06:34 AM »

For some very strange reason, the link to the old on line brochure takes about a minute to load - it should take seconds.

but load it certainly does.


Offline shortport

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Re: Another Fantasy or just a Bad Dream ?
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2015, 05:09:13 PM »
Comment from Pierre Horsfall on this website.
In Jersey, we have a remarkable and timely
opportunity to create a facility that will be of benefit
to all the Island’s young people: a Marine Lake that
will be a nursery facility that will safely introduce
them to a variety of water sports.

Surely to achieve that aim Fort Regent swimming pool should never have been closed down and the dodgy deal with Aquasplash started.A deal which still costs the taxpayers annually.
As is common in Jersey both these deals were ill conceived to produce maximum profit,rather than what be best for people that would be using them.As it turns out both these ideas turned out to be loss makers.Thats what you get when you have a disjointed government incompetent of providing for the local population

Offline boatyboy

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Re: Another Fantasy or just a Bad Dream ?
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2016, 03:30:36 PM »
Further to the JEP headline publishing the fact that the Bosdet Foudation are deserting the West Park Pool, Where does this leave the St Helier Rate Payers as the Constable has pledged £25,000 a year of rate payers money to be spent on maintenance ? The Short Report as written. The Tide tables are put in simply to confirm which days the pool is suitable for use. It is not complicated but may look confusing.

This is reply 24. If you want the further information please go to Reply 1 and also read about the views of others including politicians.

A WASTE OF £315,000

April 10th 2014. By email.

Dear Mr Horsfall,

Thank you for your frank and open telephone call last evening, regarding the refurbishment of the West Park Pool which you wish to see rebuilt and updated with a view to opening up the use for St Helier residents’ and all to enjoy.

I understand that your good self and Constable Crowcroft have been very keen to promote this dream which is commendable but in reality is it viable and workable ?

I wrote over a year and a half ago warning of the implications and problems associated with this project and would hate to see Constable Crowcroft and yourself in the unenviable position of the naïve people behind the fantasy film, which was given a grant of taxpayers money which now appears lost.

When I spoke with Constable Crowcroft’s secretary it was interesting that she mentioned like yourself, that this refurbishment plan had gone through a panel of experts and professionals. This suggests that the questions asked below have all received satisfying answers and you are both comfortable in the position you now take.

The bottom line is not complicated at all. With such a large financial cost how many days will the pool be available for the public and organisations to make full use of ?

These are the essential questions regarding the feasibility of the project which it is hoped will have all be addressed. I strongly suggest that you seek the further advice of the harbour office and statistics department people to give you a professional evaluation of the subject and more accurate figures, if they have not done so already.

Questions that need clear answers.

1) How many months of the year will the pool be utilised ?

2) How many days of those months will activities be carried on ?

3) How many days are available for activities primarily in the summer months when the pool is “ not “ covered by the tide?

4) How reliant is the facility on good weather .

5) What other locations around Jersey could offer similar activity. If they do not, why not ?

For the pool to be used it is preferable that tide should be falling ( ebb ) and not coming in ( flooding ) [1]. It would be use full to measure at what height of tide the walls flood for further analysis. I suggest that if the tide is low at say 1.00 pm on any given day this would be the ideal scenario to fully utilise the facility. It is a fact that the pool is built a reasonable way down the beach and has relatively low walls, and will therefore flood quicker than its sister pool at Havre des Pas. Further more high and low pressure will have an effect on the tide.

It is obvious that howling gales will not be beneficial therefore it follows that the outside pool is also weather reliant for some activities. [2].

It is envisaged that a selection of different groups interested in different water sports or activities will wish to use the facility. [3].

Jersey tide table for August 2014.    Y= tide out, pool not flooded at convenient day time.

Date   High   Height (M)   High   Height (M)   Low   Height (M)   Low   Height (M)   

1   10:13   9.8   22:23   9.8   04:33   2.3   16:47   2.5   
2   10:43   9.4   22:56   9.3   05:04   2.7   17:20   3.0   
3   11:18   8.9   23:36   8.8   05:37   3.1   17:58   3.4   
4   12:04   8.5   **   **   06:18   3.6   18:48   3.8   
5   00:33   8.4   13:14   8.2   07:17   3.9   20:01   4.0   
6   01:53   8.2   14:42   8.4   08:39   4.0   21:27   3.7   
7   03:21   8.5   16:04   9.0   10:06   3.5   22:46   3.0   
8   Y   04:39   9.2   17:12   9.8   11:21   2.8   23:55   2.2   
9   Y   05:44   10.0   18:12   10.6   12:25   2.0   **   **   
10 Y   06:42   10.7   19:06   11.3   00:57   1.5   13:24   1.4   
11 Y   07:33   11.3   19:55   11.8   01:54   0.8   14:18   0.9   
12 Y   08:21   11.7   20:42   12.0   02:45   0.4   15:06   0.6   
13   09:06   11.7   21:26   11.9   03:33   0.3   15:51   0.6   
14   09:48   11.5   22:07   11.5   04:15   0.5   16:33   0.9   
15   10:27   11.0   22:47   10.7   04:55   0.9   17:12   1.5   
16   11:05   10.2   23:26   9.8   05:33   1.7   17:50   2.3   
17   11:44   9.4   **   **   06:10   2.6   18:31   3.1   
18   00:10   8.9   12:33   8.6   06:54   3.4   19:24   3.8   
19   01:11   8.1   13:45   8.0   07:54   4.1   20:40   4.2   
20   02:41   7.8   15:18   8.0   09:17   4.3   22:09   4.1   
21   04:09   8.1   16:35   8.5   10:39   3.9   23:21   3.5   
22 Y   05:12   8.7   17:30   9.2   11:42   3.4   **   **   
23 Y
    05:59   9.3   18:13   9.7   00:13   3.0   12:30   2.8   
24 Y   06:39   9.8   18:51   10.2   00:57   2.5   13:10   2.4   
25 Y   07:15   10.1   19:26   10.5   01:35   2.1   13:47   2.1   
26 Y   07:48   10.4   19:57   10.6   02:09   1.9   14:21   1.9   
27 Y   08:18   10.5   20:28   10.7   02:42   1.8   14:53   1.8   
28      08:48   10.6   20:58   10.7   03:12   1.7   15:23   1.8   
29   09:18   10.5   21:28   10.5   03:41   1.8   15:53   1.9   
30   09:46   10.2   21:57   10.2   04:09   2.0   16:23   2.2   
31   10:15   9.8   22:28   9.7   04:38   2.4   16:54   2.7   

Brief explanations.

[1]   A Falling tide is no danger once the pool is free from the tide. A flooding tide is a liability depending on the time of day and whether it is a spring which can advance quickly ( using the twelfths rule ) on a flat beach like St Aubins.
It is possible with the input of the statistics department and a member of the harbour office to work an accurate chart telling the pool operators which days of optimum use and secondary use (pool open early morning, late afternoon for specific activities). It is noted that the tide hits the wall and there is no escape to evacuate higher up the beach.

[2]   Weather cannot be controlled but the best that can be achieved is to mathematically work out averages. Take Jersey weather spanning at least a hundred years, ( our lives are just less than a micro dot in time ) and work out average rain fall, hours of sunshine, storms etc in the summer months. This will give a very basic ( but not guaranteed snapshot) 

[3]    Small sailing craft for beginners require wind at or around 1 to 10 knots force or 1 to 3 on the Beaufort scale. Paddle canoes require a reasonably flat sea, wind is obviously not required. Scuba classes that may wish to use the pool are more interested in a warm place to change and clear water as apposed to rain, sunshine or wind.

Summary and personal opinion.

The tidal chart shows that there are roughly thirteen suitable tide days in August when the pool is usable all day. This is not the truth, on those days there is no guarantee that Jersey will have good weather there may in fact be a wet and windy gale coming through. There are many other factors like safe storage of safety equipment, damage to craft against hard walls, parking, etc. not explored here.

The pool could be used later or earlier by an organised group say a children’s sailing club who may use kids Optimist’s dinghies on an early pleasant summer evening. However - why - would they go to all the trouble to trailer to the pool to rig their boats and pack away when the cadets section of St Catherines’ sailing club and the two larger SHYC and Royal C.I. Yacht Club provide excellent and convenient facilities for young sailors. The out door activity department at education run by Steven Pearl also has sailing dinghies.

In my personal experience an advancing high spring tide is not to be underestimated especially with dealing with novice windsurfers and dinghy sailors who can be alarmed at the speed of the approaching tide. It makes little difference regarding the planned activities for this pool. Nature will dictate when this pool may or may not be  used, however good or honourable individual human intentions or plans are.

Hoping the pool will be as popular as the sixties or seventies when Jersey had tens of thousands of tourists is just not going to happen, the world has moved on and so have the tourists, there is no reasonable income to be earned from this project from any area, given that Jersey’s climate and tides are in full control and what is left is not enough.

Given that this project is publicised in the public domain and may be funded by the tax and rate payers, you no doubt sir want as wider debate as possible. I feel it reasonable to copy in those that have expressed an interest.

Kind Regards,

Paul Letherbarrow.

Brief history

Started Longbeach Windsurfing and Boating Centre 1984 ran through to 1997
Initiated Funboats on Havre des Pas Pool with permission of JSC operated for thirteen years.

Had permission from Tourism to operate fun boats from West Park ( forgotten which years as only serviced the pool for four days one season )
Raced as crew with Hobie Cat fleet 386 over two seasons. Own two Hobie Cats now.

St Helier Yacht Club and Royal Channel Island Yacht Club member for over thirty five years
On the St Helier Yacht club executive - six years

Cc to.

Constable Crowcroft.

Treasury Minister Phillip Ozouf.

Senator Ferguson. Corporate scrutiny

Constable Philip Rondel ( Senior Member St Helier Yacht club )

Economics Minister Alan Maclean

Deputy Tracy Vallois.  public scrutiny committee

Jersey Evening Post.

BBC Jersey



Obviously there are only 13 to 14 days each month when the pool can be used all day.

More facts including statements from Mr Horsfall and others tomorrow.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 03:42:42 PM by boatyboy »