Author Topic: Legalising Gay Marriage  (Read 1314 times)

Offline Fritz

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Legalising Gay Marriage
« on: July 08, 2014, 05:18:19 AM »
For all the bleeding heart,"Right on liberalists", out there. Have any of you actually considered that some gay folk might not want to get,"Married", in any way,shape or form?
By pushing for legalisation of, "Gay Marriage", you may actually be putting folk under more pressure than they are already under.

As soon as these laws are passed, presently happy relationships, are going to be ruined by one partner wanting to, "Make it all legal".
The divorce lawyers will make a killing. ::)

Online boatyboy

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Re: Legalising Gay Marriage
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2014, 12:49:33 AM »

JEP.

Gay marriage decision rejected by the States

THE States have rejected a move to introduce gay marriage in Jersey and instead called for an investigation into its possible effect on the Island’s society.


http://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2014/07/08/gay-marriage-decision-delayed-after-last-minute-vote-in-the-states/

 Updated : 18/06/2014

requirements for marriage - the most notable difference is the right of same-sex couples to get married.

As of today, the following EU countries grant this right: Belgium, Denmark, France, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and United Kingdom (excluding Scotland and Northern Ireland).

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/family/couple/marriage/index_en.htm

 Updated : 08/07/2014

So

The crown dependency island of  Jersey’s States assembly decides not to follow major EU countries by deciding to investigate whether bringing in gay marriage would be appropriate.

Most Islanders I suggest want other people of all creeds races, size and sexual preference to be happy in a troubled world, as long as other peoples preferences are not forced on the individual. This of course excludes many leaders of the Church who believe they have a right to tell the rest of us how to live our lives.

Still, lets look on the bright side, at least this decision will sit well with those that insist that Jersey is an old fashioned feudal back water, lorded over by a small clique of leaders that want change as much as a tramp wants a bath.

They may actually be right ?

BB,
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 12:55:17 AM by boatyboy »

Offline Little Bob

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Re: Legalising Gay Marriage
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2014, 01:01:24 AM »
Have any of you actually considered that some gay folk might not want to get,"Married", in any way,shape or form?
By pushing for legalisation of, "Gay Marriage", you may actually be putting folk under more pressure than they are already under.

So?
Equal rights are just that, equal. Good and bad.
Are you saying that there are absolutely no straight folk that might not want to get "married" and are under pressure from their partners, family and society to do so?

If "putting folk under pressure" to get married is a bad thing, then you would agree that we should seek to ban them entirely and arrest anyone attempting to conduct a marriage ceremony.


Frankly, it doesn't bother me if they get married or not. It bothers no one at all except for the sad bigoted curtain twitchers whos entire life revolves around complaining about the actions of others.

Offline Fritz

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Re: Legalising Gay Marriage
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2014, 01:39:39 AM »
I was simply making the point,"Little Bob", that there has never been any survey published showing that ,"The Majority", of the gay community actually want laws to be passed allowing them to get married.
"Simples".

Offline Little Bob

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Re: Legalising Gay Marriage
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2014, 02:27:49 AM »
Indeed, Fritz, but there has likewise never been any survey published showing that the majority of straight people want to be married.


The problem is, if we, as a society, agree that it is acceptable to give one section of our community less rights and privileges than others, where should it stop? Do we go back in time to remove the rights of various other minority groups? Do we send coloured people to the back of the bus so they don’t mix? Do we lock up single mothers and take their children away from them?

Should not the basis be that all humans are created equal? So why do we treat some as more equal than others? When we feel that one group should not  be treated as well, what does that make us?

Some of the nastiest comments between two groups of people have occurred when "what has always been" has faced "what is right". Two examples  the Gay Marriage "debate" has thrown out  was the Abolition of slavery  and Universal suffrage, both of which the  Anglican Church were strongly against. Now we don’t think twice if someone asks "should we be allowed to own slaves" and "should women be able to vote", but yet, some people still think that gay people should not have the same rights as others. In 50 years time, that concept will be laughable, but currently, we are still faced with the facists who try to control who can be considered human and who cannot.

Unfortunately, the delaying tactic shown in the States today simply highlight those who realise the inevitable and embrace it and those who fear the change for frankly laughable reasons and try to convince themselves they are resisting change for the common good.

Offline shortport

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Re: Legalising Gay Marriage
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2014, 02:30:10 AM »
I'm glad it was rejected as it was being rushed through without any proper thought,such as tax and legal implications.Whether its morally or religiously right or wrong is down to the beliefs of the individual,but things such as tax,where currently a wifes tax comes under the husbands (or something like that),hasn't even been touched on.I don't see the rush without looking at all the implications.Its a rare occurrence but I actually agree with the states decision,and as Boatyboy points out it is only a few European countries that have embraced it,the rest of the world deciding not to.

Offline Fritz

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Re: Legalising Gay Marriage
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2014, 03:07:11 AM »
Thing is Bob.
Gay people are free to form legal, civil partnerships. Whats the big deal about wanting to get married?
Are you suggesting that everyone has to change their opinions and traditions on the say so of the vociferous minority?
The States have done the correct thing by rejecting this proposal until proper research is done to determine what the majority of the electorate want.
Thats what Democracy is supposed to be about.
"Simples".
 

Online boatyboy

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Re: Legalising Gay Marriage
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2014, 03:14:27 AM »
I am not sure that is quite right shortport when you say  "the rest of the world deciding not to ". My personal opinion, is that it is up to other couples what they get up to and how they live their lives. I don't like to be told how to live my life by the electorate, church or any one else, I can mess it up myself.

I suggest time has moved on from when smoking was cool, and shell suits were all the fashion, I was about to write that most people, but that would be wrong a lot of people ( sounds about right ) do not care either way about gay or lesbians getting married. As far as taxes and legal stuff that is a red herring. As little Bob indicates use a broad brush,  just look at the names on the marriage certificate and legally treat them like a couple, end of.

Jesus it's a hard old life, if two people make each other happy and care for each other, let them get on with it, civilian, marriage, living in a cave naked as long as they are not trying to pressure others into joining them.

BB.

Offline Fritz

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Re: Legalising Gay Marriage
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2014, 03:37:26 AM »
I am not sure that is quite right shortport when you say  "the rest of the world deciding not to ". My personal opinion, is that it is up to other couples what they get up to and how they live their lives. I don't like to be told how to live my life by the electorate, church or any one else, I can mess it up myself.

I suggest time has moved on from when smoking was cool, and shell suits were all the fashion, I was about to write that most people, but that would be wrong a lot of people ( sounds about right ) do not care either way about gay or lesbians getting married. As far as taxes and legal stuff that is a red herring. As little Bob indicates use a broad brush,  just look at the names on the marriage certificate and legally treat them like a couple, end of.

Jesus it's a hard old life, if two people make each other happy and care for each other, let them get on with it, civilian, marriage, living in a cave naked as long as they are not trying to pressure others into joining them.

BB.

Totally agree with your views BB.
 What I dont agree with is folk who chose to live, lets just say," Non traditionally", demanding that the ,"Traditions", are changed.

Offline Little Bob

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Re: Legalising Gay Marriage
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2014, 04:10:06 AM »
No, Fritz, I would never say that the vociferous minority of homophobes have to change their opinions and traditions, but that same minority should not dictate the opinions and traditions of other people and force others to life how they want, which is exactly what they have done for centuries.

I will add that the reason why I like this website is the varied opinions presented, even those such as yours that I do not agree with. In the majority of posts, those opinions are at least well thought out and clearly presented, even when people disagree..

But back to the issue, These people can have their opinions, they can have their traditions, but by vilifying one group goes beyond opinions, it is attempting to force control. They dictate that gay people are wrong, for no intelligent reason other than someone five centuries changed a book to say so. They dictate that gay people should be happy with the lesser scraps thrown to them, that they are not equal, they are lesser people and will never be treated fairly.

Refusing gay people to be treated the same means that you have to ignore their opinions, On the other hand, allowing gay people to be treated equally does not alter your opinions of them one bit. You can still disagree with what they may do in private, that will never change, will it?
As for traditions, they change all the time. So many church traditions have changed over the years, The Ptolemaic and heliocentric model of the universe is one well known biggie as is the flat earth model, the 6 day creation myth and the 6000 year old Earth.  More recently, Women in church “traditional” marriages no longer have to “Obey” their husbands, but we don’t complain about that change of tradition. Besides, Marriage is older than the Christian church, yet we also have those traditions that the Church conveniently ignore, such as the death of any non-virgin bride, yet still preach in the bible.

I completely disagree that the states have done the right thing. This is an intentional plan, yet again, to delay what some consider a contentious issue, but this time, instead of being mysteriously absence during the vote, they have given themselves a way out of deciding with an excuse that “proper research” has to be done.
What research can be done to determine what affect allowing this will have? Shortport mentions two issues, Tax and legal. Tax is simple, Married couples do not have to have the wives tax under the husbands any more, and this arraignment is already in the stages of being changed for when the sex discrimination law comes in. Married gay couples simply continue as a Married straight couple would when the wife does not have her tax under her husband’s.
Legal issues are already entirely covered under the current straight arraignment, so there is no need to consider the implications of that.

There is simply no downside, but the positive affect would be more people getting married and paying to do so in Jersey, instead of spending the thousands of pounds doing it in the UK only to be told when they return to Jersey that its now downgraded to a "civil partnership". A boost to the economy which does not involve finance should not be disregarded out of hand.


And, when have the states ever considered what the majority of the electorate want? Can you really see this put to referendum, Question, Do you want the gays to kidnap your children, turn them gay and marry each other? Yes or No.
Considering the previous referendum, that wouldn’t be too far from the truth, and still the states would umm and ahhh in the states and delay a decision for another 3 years.

But two things to think over, If a minority are against a subject matter and an equally sized minority are for, and the vast majority don’t care either way, Does that mean that that the anti group should get precedence over the pro group, or the other way round?
Secondly, How would you feel if the tables were reversed. If straight people could not be treated the same as gay people and that gay people got advantages not allowed to others, say for example a tax break. Would you think that was fair?

Online boatyboy

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Re: Legalising Gay Marriage
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2014, 03:46:24 PM »
Big thanks to " TheJerseyWay" the Jersey blogg ( for overseas visitors ) that records what is said and by whom in the Government assembly. Excellent recording quality, and a good and from the heart short speech by Phillip Ozouf credit where it is due.

A stonker of a speech by Deputy Nick Le Cornu who came out all guns blazing, the Bailiff was not amused, sensible by Sam Menzec, and Tadier, and it occured to me that the unelected Dean who spoke twice blamed the Catholics but said he spoke for all religions, including Muslims. How is it allowed that an unelected person is allowed to constantly lobby, and try and persuade Government in an assembly  ?

Well worth a listen, all credit to TheJerseyWay who credit the BBC. Well worth a listen.

http://thejerseyway.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/civil-marriages-same-sex-couples.html

BB
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 03:49:13 PM by boatyboy »

Offline Chevalier Blanc

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Re: Legalising Gay Marriage
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2014, 04:29:32 PM »
Marriage should only be between man and woman.
I have nothing against gay people but  a civil partnership is the only thing that they should be allowed.
Marriage came in to protect the children if partners were to leave and the children had no rights. So marriage is for man and woman who hopefully will have children whereas gays cannot have children with each other by way of making love.
The way things are going the family values are being eroded and I say this is not the way that is good for the human being.
I also believe that gays should not be able to adopt because children need a father and mother for a stable outlook on life.
I know I will upset people with this post but we all have our opinions and beliefs.
I stated again I have nothing against guy people other than marriage and children.
Civil partnership is fine.

Offline shortport

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Re: Legalising Gay Marriage
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2014, 01:32:30 AM »
Some people seem to forget that homophobia is not a crime.
I couldn't care less if same sex couples get married but why do they always feel the need to shove it in your face.I dread the day when we have Gay Pride marches through town with grown men in mankinis openly snogging each other.This may be an extreme example but its all part of gay culture.
Am I the one who is wrong because I find this offensive or those who indulge in unnatural sex acts.,because sex is what it boils down to otherwise they would just be friends.
And where does it end,will it be acceptable for a father to marry his son and if not why not?.How about ten people all marrying each other acceptable or not?

Offline Fritz

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Re: Legalising Gay Marriage
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2014, 02:35:23 AM »
I applaud your well thought out post Bob.
 But I,m with CB on this one.
The very fact that everyone is entitled to their opinions, suggests that this matter should be fully explored before any rash decisions are made.