Author Topic: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence  (Read 11511 times)

Offline danrok

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Re: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2009, 12:25:23 AM »
As far as labour goes, I can imagine that some workers may only be there for a month or so at a time, such as specialised engineers and fitters.  If they normally live in France, then they would most likely be paid in France, in Euros, and not pay taxes here either.

Offline !CaveMan

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Re: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2009, 11:59:38 AM »
Im Thinking,
How long will the La Collette Chimney last for as last time i went on top of it the flues were rotting away?
its very much older than the bellozane one thats falling apart from the fumes & gasses now!
maybe that will have to be rebuilt for another massive amount of or hard erned dosh????

Offline moot

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Re: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2009, 02:48:19 PM »
JEP 15 Nov 2008
Contracts with with the consortium of local and French firms were signed yesterday ( 14 Nov )
The final cost of the incinerator is expected to be around £106 million
Two contracts were signed. One for £98 million with a consortium of companies who will build the plant and another with the JEC to sell the electricity it generates to them and to guarantee use of the chimney. The final cost of the project including landscaping and a contingency fund will be over the £100 million mark.


So if the consortium of companies who build the plant were all French £98 million would have to paid in euros. That is much more than the "over half" reported
Interestingly Lord de Faye "spinned" during the debate that the same carbuncle could have been bought for £60million in 2000. He continiues : "Since the pound has slumped against the euro" and the price of steel had rocketed the 2000 price looked like a bargain.  So even then the States were warned that the pound was sinking against the euro !

We also must not forget that £4 million has already been spent on various consultants
Including this I make the price of this thing now well over £25million and rising...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 02:50:14 PM by moot »

Offline boatyboy

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Re: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2009, 10:00:15 PM »

Is Terry Le Suer ultimately to blame for the exchange rate loss, while being Minister in charge of that department?
 
I took the position that he was not!

After reading through the views expressed by others that put the blame squarely on Terry le Suer, I realised that my view needed more thought I was not completely comfortable with it. Yes and No depending on circumstances as a Political Minister.

If the Minister gave clear and precise orders (fulfilling his remit) to subordinates in this case the head of the treasury, then the minister should expect the job to be done. If it is not then he will have no choice but to prove clear orders were given and bring in strong and public disciplinary procedures.

After all, a doctor may issue dosages and type of medicine before he goes home for the night; it is unreasonable for him to stand over the trained medical staff to make sure the correct medication is given. Should the professionals on duty administer the wrong drugs, it must be "they" that are held responsible.

However on the other hand, as Treasurer and top of the tree when he is making provision to spend taxpayers money and also by default, protect the public purse. Should he not have asked to put in place exchange rate protection ?( he says he did) as everyone who can read will know, that the Euro was weak against the pound, and as England was heading for recession it was the obvious move to make. Locking in even half the amount in a different currency. Would have been common sense.

So if an independent inquiry shows poor leadership, the CM must resign,( then Treasury Minister ) I agree with others.

Should it be found he showed strong leadership and gave clear orders, the head of department should resign as  through bad management in running their department have lost millions of tax payers money. 

I rest my view...……. except in the case of an enquiry can we have Senator Sarah Ferguson's Corporate Scrutiny panel, and not the treasury investigating themselves, we have seen self investigation already at the hospital and its conflicted.

Boatyboy

Offline danrok

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Re: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2009, 10:06:57 PM »
The real problem is a lack of accountability.  Seems that politicians are as good as immune to being held accountable, and civil servants are simply suspended on full pay, and allowed to slip out the backdoor.

Offline Ruddler

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Re: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2009, 10:14:44 PM »
Agree with you there BB but of course no-one resigns any more, they are generally a fairly shameless bunch.  For instance, on what grounds is it reasonable for, say, a health minister to resign?

1.   After 9 years at the helm during which a catalogue of stuff ups happened and went either uninvestigated or unreported to the voters, although perhaps any one of them should have been;

2.   Comparing a senior police officer to a comedian during the course of one of the most difficult and sensitive enquiries the island has ever known; or

3.   Suggesting a work colleague "top" themselves during a States sitting.

My view?  Any one of them could and probably should have gone of their own volition.  However, as you say, if staff cannot or will not carry out the policy of their Minister it is not necessarily a resigning matter.  What is is when the Minister is personally responsible for acts of commission or ommission of policy which are in the end prejudicial to the island and its people.

Although if we carry on at this rate there'll be no-one left on the CoM!

Offline Pomme de terre

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Re: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2009, 12:25:45 AM »
Is Terry Le Suer ultimately to blame for the exchange rate loss, while being Minister in charge of that department?
 
I took the position that he was not!

After reading through the views expressed by others that put the blame squarely on Terry le Suer, I realised that my view needed more thought I was not completely comfortable with it. Yes and No depending on circumstances as a Political Minister.

If the Minister gave clear and precise orders (fulfilling his remit) to subordinates in this case the head of the treasury, then the minister should expect the job to be done. If it is not then he will have no choice but to prove clear orders were given and bring in strong and public disciplinary procedures.

After all, a doctor may issue dosages and type of medicine before he goes home for the night; it is unreasonable for him to stand over the trained medical staff to make sure the correct medication is given. Should the professionals on duty administer the wrong drugs, it must be "they" that are held responsible.

However on the other hand, as Treasurer and top of the tree when he is making provision to spend taxpayers money and also by default, protect the public purse. Should he not have asked to put in place exchange rate protection ?( he says he did) as everyone who can read will know, that the Euro was weak against the pound, and as England was heading for recession it was the obvious move to make. Locking in even half the amount in a different currency. Would have been common sense.

So if an independent inquiry shows poor leadership, the CM must resign,( then Treasury Minister ) I agree with others.

Should it be found he showed strong leadership and gave clear orders, the head of department should resign as  through bad management in running their department have lost millions of tax payers money. 

I rest my view...……. except in the case of an enquiry can we have Senator Sarah Ferguson's Corporate Scrutiny panel, and not the treasury investigating themselves, we have seen self investigation already at the hospital and its conflicted.

Boatyboy

Boaty, let's put it like this....

In a former job, I once bought £3million worth of shares in one company on the London Stock Exchange, in one deal. It was a big deal for me, and was enough to "move the market" in that stock. The lady who sat next to me once bought £58million worth in one go. I helped her out on that deal.

When we were doing these things, management were all over us like a rash. From the moment the "go" decision was made, everything was closely tracked. We prepared, we notified everyone who needed to know, we executed the trades, we did all the necessary paperwork and record keeping, we moved on to the next deal. I was a 24 year old wet behind the ears junior at the time. Had management or I messed up, we would have been sued.

So, when the States of Jersey sets out to spend the most it has ever spent in one go....how come I could have done a better job on my own as a 24 year old junior? Where WAS the management control and oversight?

Offline boatyboy

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Re: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2009, 12:33:21 AM »

Good interesting post Pomme

So its the Treasury management heading for the door, is that your point,

BB

Offline Pomme de terre

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Re: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2009, 12:44:07 AM »
I'm not actually sure where the buck stops (which bothers me somewhat). It all depends on who has been made responsible for what. Minister or manager, I'm not sure...

All I know is that when I dealt with some serious numbers, some serious people had a vested interest in me not screwing it up. They were professional enough to take the time to care. They asked questions, they followed my progress, they wanted to know that what needed to be done was done when it was supposed to be done. It did not take hours of work on their part, just a few phone calls, emails, or face to face conversations. It was just attention to detail, and being AWARE that they should care, and taking an active interest in us, as a team, not messing up.

I suspect what will happen is that they wil say "Ooops, we didn't realise that we should have a process in place to oversee this, therefore no single individual is to blame. Let's move on."

The sad fact is that regular normal Joe's like me in the private sector deal with such sums on a daily basis (I personally don't any more, different role). To many people in the finance industry, handling a forex for 100 million quid would be all in a day's work. Why the hell did they not get some expertise, local or otherwise?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 01:17:27 AM by Pomme de terre »

Offline Calimachon

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Re: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2009, 10:22:52 AM »
Quote
So, when the States of Jersey sets out to spend the most it has ever spent in one go....how come I could have done a better job on my own as a 24 year old junior? Where WAS the management control and oversight?

Pomme de Terre you have just captured the essence of the difference between private and public sector management here.  Heaven knows why often the public sector can't seem to actually use the checks and balances that they should have put into place.

Maybe you were firmly put into the picture by your uplines attitude - that you had a very important part to play and that your contribution was a strong one and you got a sense of loyalty and desire not to let anyone down.  Plus the fact that you could probably lose your job if you failed.  The finance sector used to be very strict regarding protocol.  Shame the attitude slipped along the way.
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Offline I.N.Exile

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Re: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2009, 02:18:08 PM »
Pomme de Terre you have just captured the essence of the difference between private and public sector management here.  Heaven knows why often the public sector can't seem to actually use the checks and balances that they should have put into place.

And the private sector management is so holy? Hasn't there been things in the news about £50 billion+ bailouts in the private sector. The taxpayer has to pay for both the private and public cock-ups.

Offline Sarah Ferguson

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Re: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2009, 03:23:25 PM »
There has been an inquiry - The C&AGs report.  The next thing will be a public hearing by the PAC.

rogueelement

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Re: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2009, 03:43:34 PM »
anyone got a spare tin of whitewash?
Sarah, we discussed this topic , way back when! Perhaps it should be compulsory for Civil servants to spend 30 minutes a day on Planet Jersey as part of their continuing professional development.

Offline Sarah Ferguson

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Re: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2009, 03:45:15 PM »
I thought you wanted them to do some work!

Offline Calimachon

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Re: Terry Le Sueur wastes £10m through incompetence
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2009, 05:59:33 PM »
Quote
And the private sector management is so holy? Hasn't there been things in the news about £50 billion+ bailouts in the private sector. The taxpayer has to pay for both the private and public cock-ups.

Yes the public have to pay on both occasions BUT it was the deregulation that caused the credit crunch, it was the Treasury (Public sector), the Bank of England (The Public sector have a big say in who can be appointed) and the Financial Services Authority (Members of the Board are appointed by The Treasury - Public sector choice) who failed to check things were going according to plan.  The buck, IMHO stops at the Public Sector.
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