Author Topic: Senator Ozouf says "we have no ability to compete in industry"  (Read 5008 times)

Offline danrok

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I'm quoting him from his speech on 1st July 2008.  He's referring to Jersey when he says "we".

Unfortunately, we can't know exactly what he was referring to when he says "industry" given that the word can cover just about any kind of trade or service, including finance.  You would have hoped that someone who's job it is to look after the economy could at least be more specific, and demonstrate a degree of expertise when using terminology.

So, if we look at his statement's literal meaning, he is saying that the people of Jersey have no ability in anything, at all.

I would strongly disagree with that, there are many very able people here in Jersey.  There are also many successful business enterprises which are Jersey bred, and not just in finance.

Should somebody who is very quick to dismiss our abilities be in charge of economic development?

He does not fill me with any enthusiasm for the future. Fortunately, there are others who can.

Jason the Maverick

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Re: Senator Ozouf says "we have no ability to compete in industry"
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2008, 01:09:17 PM »
The facts about the finance industry is that the money it makes is passed through the economy which benefits all other trades.

Everytime the Finance Industry is effected in Jersey we do see a knock on effect.  I think the closer your trade is to the finance the industry the more successful you will be.

Offline danrok

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Re: Senator Ozouf says "we have no ability to compete in industry"
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2008, 02:35:15 PM »
Some successful and industrious local businesses, which as far as I know have no connection to the finance industry:

http://www.cpaglobal.com/
http://www.play.com/
http://www.flyingflowers.com
http://www.jerseyoyster.com/

All of these have clients outside of Jersey, and so bring money in to the island.

Jason the Maverick

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Re: Senator Ozouf says "we have no ability to compete in industry"
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2008, 02:53:48 PM »
Well if it isn't finance it has to be tax!

Yes, there are other industries, but none of the magnitude of bringing in the kind of money the finance industry brings in.

As far as an industry which could either take over or replace the amount of money the finance industry brings in, there cannot be any.  If I remember rightly, Senator Ozouf's late father was a major player in Jersey's agricultural industry a couple of decades ago.  Just like a few other families I knew of around the Island.  Some of whom I went to school with.

But the industry could not compete with the outside and came to a halt pretty quickly during the late 80's.

Tourism suffered a similar fate when low cost alternate destinations came into play.  We have no oil, diamonds or precious metals to offer. 

When you think about it, what can we really offer nowadays?

Offline danrok

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Re: Senator Ozouf says "we have no ability to compete in industry"
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2008, 03:59:03 PM »
Bear in mind that the finance industry also COSTS a lot of money!  If it ceased to exist, the demand for public services would be lessened.  Things would balance out in time.  The population would reduce dramatically.  Life here would probably be harder in some ways, but people have lived here for a very long time before finance arrived.

Bear in mind, I'm not anti-finance.  I'm just suggesting that we could do well in other areas, if we put our minds to it.

Anyhow, Philip Ozouf was on CTV News just now claiming that the island need not worry about the credit crunch because he wants to pursue growth markets in places such as China and India!

    
Mumbai Stock Exchange Sensitive Index:
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/fds/hi/business/market_data/stockmarket/11744/twelve_month.stm

I see no growth there.  Was at 20873.33 in early January, today it is 13664.62.

Hong Kong Hang Seng Index:
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/fds/hi/business/market_data/stockmarket/11743/twelve_month.stm

Guess what, same story in Hong Kong.

How can anyone think that China will see growth when the USA is having problems?  China gets paid in US Dollars!

Where did this guy learn about economics!

Jason the Maverick

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Re: Senator Ozouf says "we have no ability to compete in industry"
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2008, 04:04:58 PM »
China was actually being blamed recently for the causes of oil and food prices.  The one thing I will say is that there isn't much business elsewhere at the moment! 

Offline Malachi

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Re: Senator Ozouf says "we have no ability to compete in industry"
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2008, 04:10:50 PM »
Any transition from finance to something else isn't going to happen overnight; I'm not suggesting that it should happen, but I don't believe it is impossible (it's just not going to happen overnight). As JTM said, any non-finance business is going to rely on income from finance (either directly or indirectly from its employees) for a long long time; most of the service-providing self-employed people that I know get most of their income from finance workers.

Furthermore, a lot of non-finance businesses rely on the Island's relatively low taxaxtion regime to gain their competitive advantage; Play.com & flyingflowers & their rivals like jerseyplantsdirect & Indigo Lighthouse/Starfish etc. rely on the less-than-£18 VAT loophole. CPA isn't here by accident (even though it was started here) either, and a lot of their activities have an offshore 'flavour'.

China & India will still grow (China's economy grew by 12% last year) if they can keep inflation under control (which is the main problem/fear in the global economy at the moment) and there is a big market for financial services in the form of newly-enriched individuals (in Russia too).

I don't think Jersey is recession proof either (not that house prices will drop; they'll just stop going up for a year or two), and the potential for things to go wrong in the global economy at the moment is very high indeed.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 04:16:50 PM by Malachi »

Offline danrok

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Re: Senator Ozouf says "we have no ability to compete in industry"
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2008, 04:12:36 PM »
I don't doubt that off-shore finance centres will do well, over the next year at least, due to more companies looking at reducing their taxes because times are hard.  But, that may bring us a lot of unwanted attention, the governments won't be happy if they're receiving less tax.

I don't think Jersey is in some kind of bullet proof situation.  If any recession lasts long enough, it will have a noticeable effect here.  

Offline danrok

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Re: Senator Ozouf says "we have no ability to compete in industry"
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2008, 04:21:07 PM »
Malachi - we would still be an off-shore location if the banks weren't here, the VAT import threshold would still exist, of course that VAT advantage is nothing more than a piece of paper, which could be changed at any time.

Offline Malachi

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Re: Senator Ozouf says "we have no ability to compete in industry"
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2008, 04:26:45 PM »
I know - my point was that whatever might kill finance (i.e. the EU & USA deciding to embark on a global war against offshore finance [even though, according to JTM, we don't do much business with them... but that isn't the point]) would also kill a lot of the alternatives to finance.

Offline danrok

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Re: Senator Ozouf says "we have no ability to compete in industry"
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2008, 04:40:10 PM »
If finance left we could turn all those empty office blocks in to the world's finest paintball arena, with game scenarios such as protect the HSBC building from a terrorist attack.

The naked bungee jump thing could work as well, £30 for a crane jump or £50 for one off La Collette chimney.

Offline Malachi

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Re: Senator Ozouf says "we have no ability to compete in industry"
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2008, 04:42:42 PM »
Now you're talking... the HSBC building could become the world's premier urban combat, counter-terrorism, law enforcement training centre or something.

Jason the Maverick

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Re: Senator Ozouf says "we have no ability to compete in industry"
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2008, 05:02:02 PM »
No finance industry?  Easy, legalize cannabis and open up Amsterdam style coffee bars (in these old buildings), massage parlors and brothels.  Tourism would go through the roof.

Offline King Rollo

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Re: Senator Ozouf says "we have no ability to compete in industry"
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2008, 05:05:33 PM »
I know - my point was that whatever might kill finance (i.e. the EU & USA deciding to embark on a global war against offshore finance [even though, according to JTM, we don't do much business with them... but that isn't the point]) would also kill a lot of the alternatives to finance.

I think you have hit the nail on the head here. The point to hammer home is that the USA and EU already have gone to war, it just has not filtered down locally yet. Take a gander at the FBI (and others) website and link down to fraud and what they so politely call 'white collar crime'. The message is clear, tax avoidance is now a crimminal offence in the USA, UK and most other EU countries. Note there is no longer a grey area, it is now a crimminal offence to hide money from the tax man in another country. The Nat West lads were, although not tax associated the first of the many - dont book a holiday to the States if you work in .....etc blah blah!

However, tax avoidance is something the Scots, with Whisky buried around yonder hills 'in pot and peat' have much experience and long memories, the 'bastard' excise men smashing stills and hanging the local sheriff, turning out the families and presenting a sovereign to London!  It is often much romanced and rightly so, because the assumption is, that levied taxes will be spent with 'wise and guided thought to the poor man, his tears we wiped on our breeches as they slipped into the purse of the Crown!'
Take your pick, do you really think the US will spend wisely?
So what is wrong with a history of Privateering and plundering the ships of Spain, France and yes, the USA?

Sorry, guys - serious note though, reliance upon one industry is always going to hurt in the long term. So, look elsewhere as well, but where?

More soon.




  


Offline Malachi

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Re: Senator Ozouf says "we have no ability to compete in industry"
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2008, 05:12:15 PM »
Before JTM pounces...

Tax avoidance is not illegal. The decision to avoid tax or not is one of conscience/ethics; some people believe that they have moral/ethical duty to pay as little tax as possible, whereas others are happy to pay more tax than they need to (some celebs are quite open about their willingness to pay more tax than they need to).

Tax evasion is illegal.

What the USA & EU might do (or may have started doing) is change the laws within their own jurisdictions so that used-to-be-legal tax avoidance activity X becomes illegal (= tax evasion).