Author Topic: The Bailiff of Jersey,  (Read 22813 times)

Offline Chevalier Blanc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1602
Re: The Bailiff of Jersey,
« Reply #90 on: December 09, 2010, 10:02:28 PM »
Blimey Ruddler you cannot see why the bailiff should only be doing the judge's job.
Have you been sleeping for the last 3 decades?
Plain as plain can be he pulls strings which he should not be doing and is the top man in the establishment so now tell me where he is not conflicted.

ole razzy

  • Guest
Re: The Bailiff of Jersey,
« Reply #91 on: December 10, 2010, 11:03:28 AM »
Just got an email from an old friend about the Carswell Report. She's of the opinion that the States wont vote for a change in the current structure at the present time but when the EU starts to apply a little pressure members will feel obliged to comply not wishing to harm Jersey's international image (yes that old chestnut!). She talked a little about who the new speaker might be but concluded that probably the best person to do the job would be Philip Bailhache!

How funny is that?

Offline tonytheprof

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 586
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Bailiff of Jersey,
« Reply #92 on: December 10, 2010, 01:33:24 PM »
I've been reviewing the Carswell submissions and some of the underlying arguments of the "keep things as they are" are:

a) it's cheap - a strong argument for any Jerseyman!
b) "if it ain't broke don't fix it"  (Bob Le Sueur and others)
c) it's served us well for 800 years (Philip Bailhache)

Against this:

a) it's not cheap - we need to pay for lawyers for the court when the Bailiff can't be there, and what he is doing instead is a highly expensive chairman (as the Greffier can and has done it - consider the difference in salary between them!). Weigh the cost of lawyers against the cost of a speaker.

b) but it is broke - the Bailiff prevents questions being asked or propositions brought that are in any way critical of the judiciary. There are numerous examples of this in the submissions and meetings with Carswell - "conflicts, perceived rather than actual, are well managed" - yes - it's called "blocking them"! From the Bailiff's point of view, excluding criticism of the judiciary is extremely well managed!

(c) works on the basis that it has provided 800 years of good leadership and justice, and cheerfully excludes the Bailiffs who sentenced people to be burnt at the stake as witches, or people like Hoste Nichole who was one of the most corrupt individuals you could imagine. And so on. The lesson of history is that it can be selective. Just ignore the bad bits.

Offline Dylan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1672
  • HELP!
Re: The Bailiff of Jersey,
« Reply #93 on: December 10, 2010, 01:44:40 PM »
When the Bailiffe has been de-throned, in many years to come, his role will be that akin to a sort of Santa-type of Character, dragged out in a form of Pageantry, Rather like the States assembly as it is today but with a little less formality (if that is possible). we will all smile and say "Yeah! I remember the good old days!".
!dereggub si draobyek ym kniht I

Offline tonytheprof

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 586
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Bailiff of Jersey,
« Reply #94 on: December 10, 2010, 02:39:56 PM »
Yes, probably a most selective remembering...

Like when people hanker back to a past society that is a golden age. For example:

I remember back in the 1960s when you could leave your door unlocked and no one would ever come inside etc etc

Unless it was Edward Paisnel, of course!


Offline Sarah Ferguson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 288
Re: The Bailiff of Jersey,
« Reply #95 on: December 14, 2010, 08:47:17 PM »
I suggest you may like to read the legal opinion by a leading human rights lawyer - at the back of the report.  This is the second learned opinion - the first was that regarding theBailiff of Guernsey (details in the Guernsey Harwood Report) - which has said that the Bailiff's position complies with the HR Law.

Also, please bear in mind that the Bailiff does NOT have a casting vote.

Offline moot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1149
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Bailiff of Jersey,
« Reply #96 on: December 14, 2010, 09:57:51 PM »
He's a bailiff, please get him out of there  ;D

Offline tonytheprof

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 586
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Bailiff of Jersey,
« Reply #97 on: December 14, 2010, 11:00:50 PM »
While the Bailiff does NOT have a casting vote, he can decided what questions or propositions to allow, and how these may be worded. As Roy Le Herrissier pointed out in his submission, when Paul le Clare was bringing a proposition to the States, the part that was critical of the role of the judiciary was struck out.

This is a clear example of a conflict of interests, and other States members (not including Stuart Syvret) have also told me of times when either a proposition had to be reworded or would be refused point blank. It is surely for the House to decide on a proposition, and not for the Bailiff to allow or disallow it, with no means of appeal.

I did not make a submission, but I did start wording one, and while I in fact had no trouble with the dual role, it was this aspect of the Bailiff's powers that I would have asked to be curtailed.

The Bailiff is also supposed to be neutral politically, but in what has become a notorious Liberation Day speech, he spoke out on a matter of politics, and, according to many of the people I know who were here in the Occupation, completely transgressed the boundaries of what he should have done at a ceremonial function of remembrance. It was a highly political intervention, and not one for a neutral president of the States to make, nor one which any other Bailiff has made.

Of previous Bailiffs, Crill took political swipes mostly in his posthumous (and sometimes wickedly venomous) memoir, written after he had left office, while Erault's main claim to fame was effectively banning Monty Python's Life of Brian, which lead to the Bailiff's sole powers of decision being curtailed by a consultative panel. The Life of Brian is, of course, now available locally on DVD.

Offline newmac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1120
  • Gender: Male


    • Buy me a beer
Re: The Bailiff of Jersey,
« Reply #98 on: December 14, 2010, 11:03:33 PM »
But Mr Singh also said in his Opinion it was unlikely to comply with 4.11.3 of the Bangalore principle and that within 10 years time it will be regarded as incompatible with ECHR

Isn't it also important how it appears to the outside.

Offline tonytheprof

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 586
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Bailiff of Jersey,
« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2010, 11:14:44 PM »
He ousted VernonTomes from the role of Deputy Bailiff, and took his place in 1994. He then became Bailiff in 1995

What happened illustrated the problems a a dual role, but it is more complicated than that. Tomes was falling behind in his court cases, in his judicial role, and eventually (despite efforts to ease the workload), it became apparent that he was not managing to catch up, and (as it appeared) was not applying himself as much to cases as to his social life (the cocktail party circuit). Crill then took the decision to communicate with the Home Office (as Tomes was a Crown appointment) and it was agreed that he would be dismissed.

If he had been a Magistrate, like Ian Christmas (who is STILL suspended), he would have just vanished from view, but because he was also Deputy Bailiff, this was seen (by many) as an act of interference by the Home Office into the affairs of whom the States should have as President - and of course Tomes had chaired States meetings as Deputy Bailiff.

This is the problem with a dual role - of course it was a judicial matter, but one which impacted on the political arena of the States Assembly, and did therefore interfere with who should be there, as well. And that's why it aroused such a groundswell of anger - the UK effectively getting rid of a popular Deputy Bailiff - whose merits were considered from the point of view by those who voted for him as the next Bailiff in the States, rather than the Courts.

It was extremely polarising and very messy, and shows just what can happen when matters go seriously wrong with one of the roles, but are fine in the other.




Offline Chevalier Blanc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1602
Re: The Bailiff of Jersey,
« Reply #100 on: December 15, 2010, 09:27:59 PM »
They wanted Tomes out! They even wanted him to have elocution lessons because of his Jersey accent, have you ever heard the like before. What about the leader in South Africa did they ask him to go for elocution lessons. Tomes just did not fit the bill. They made his work load difficult so as to have a reason to get him out. Do not forget he had more brains than anyone in the States. He did not go along with the Establishment line. So you see why people like Paul Le Clair said what he said about speaking out against the establishment and what he heard in the corridor of the States building. You than see why SSS has all this trouble.
£100,000,000 over spend!!!  That is your establishment for you. How the bloody hell can they over spend by that amount and than tell us to pay more taxes to fill a hole that they created. They will do anything that they want to do through power and fear. Go against that and you see what has happened to Power, Harper and Stuart throw in Bellwood as well and a few others.

Offline tonytheprof

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 586
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Bailiff of Jersey,
« Reply #101 on: December 15, 2010, 11:33:44 PM »
I'm afraid I was totally disappointed in Vernon Tomes.

He got in on a high popular vote as a Senator - and I was one of those voting for him - on a mandate of reforming the States, and in particular the dual role of the Bailiff.

Instead, he became President of Public Services, went totally quite on the reform front very quickly, and became extremely autocratic and unpopular within a year.

As an example, his attitude about dangerous ash at the reclamation site, as reported was: "Vernon then, because he had been a civil servant himself, and a top one at that, took the attitude: “Well, you should always believe what your officers tell you.”  "

When he died, the JEP (and the Church) expected a huge turnout, standing room outside the church, thinking back to his election popularity, and not how he had just thrown it away by his abrasive attitude to the public as President of Public Services.  There was sitting room inside St John's.



Offline Calimachon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1502
  • Gender: Female
  • http://www.amnesty.org.uk/
Re: The Bailiff of Jersey,
« Reply #102 on: December 16, 2010, 11:23:40 AM »
I'm afraid I was totally disappointed in Vernon Tomes.

He got in on a high popular vote as a Senator - and I was one of those voting for him - on a mandate of reforming the States, and in particular the dual role of the Bailiff.

Instead, he became President of Public Services, went totally quite on the reform front very quickly, and became extremely autocratic and unpopular within a year.

As an example, his attitude about dangerous ash at the reclamation site, as reported was: "Vernon then, because he had been a civil servant himself, and a top one at that, took the attitude: “Well, you should always believe what your officers tell you.”  "

When he died, the JEP (and the Church) expected a huge turnout, standing room outside the church, thinking back to his election popularity, and not how he had just thrown it away by his abrasive attitude to the public as President of Public Services.  There was sitting room inside St John's.

It would be interesting to find out how other historians will write about this particular period of our history. 

Cali  :o
TOMORROW (Noun) = A mystical land where 99% of all human productivity, motivation an achievement is stored

Offline boatyboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2946
Re: The Bailiff of Jersey,
« Reply #103 on: July 04, 2011, 09:47:23 PM »
If the privy council can overrule the Guernsey courts then they sure as  fish swim can overrule Jersey courts. Stand up all those  people that say Jersey and the other little crown dependencies are self ruling.


A LEGAL ruling on trust law handed down by the Privy Council may have far-reaching effects on local law.
The Privy Council overruled the Guernsey Courts and applied English law in a landmark decision.

 http://www.thisisjersey.com/2011/06/28/trust-law-ruling-may-have-far-reaching-consequences/

BB.

Just re - read Tonytheprofs posts above this one, especially replies 92 and 97 very interesting and enlightening so much for duel non political roles.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 09:52:43 PM by boatyboy »

Offline boatyboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2946
Re: The Bailiff of Jersey,
« Reply #104 on: May 09, 2012, 09:50:10 AM »


It is pleasing that the islanders had a good day at Liberation Square, although not my sort of outing. Let us hope the JEP enable their blog so the public, having been liberated from the Germans can use their democratic and free voice without heavy censorship. Then again there are other blogs and Forums not funded heavily by the Chief Ministers department of the States.

JEP

Thousands of Islanders are today celebrating the 67th anniversary of liberation from German occupation.

A full programme of events includes a service of thanksgiving and commemoration and re-enactment ceremony in Liberation Square,  and a special States Sitting.

http://www.thisisjersey.com/news/2012/05/09/thousands-celebrate-liberation-day-2/

bb