Author Topic: Population  (Read 4808 times)

Offline danrok

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Re: Population
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2012, 05:39:54 PM »
Some daft conclusions being drawn from a simplistic survey!

If those with spare rooms wanted to take in lodgers, they would already be doing so.  Seems pointless to even mention it.

Where are these 3,000 empty properties?  Difficult to comment on that without knowing anything about them.  They could be recently constructed, or complete holes in need of considerable renovation, or demolition.

But, the current housing prices suggest that most of these are not on the property market.


Offline Calimachon

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Re: Population
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2012, 06:04:20 PM »
Some daft conclusions being drawn from a simplistic survey!

If those with spare rooms wanted to take in lodgers, they would already be doing so.  Seems pointless to even mention it.

Where are these 3,000 empty properties?  Difficult to comment on that without knowing anything about them.  They could be recently constructed, or complete holes in need of considerable renovation, or demolition.

But, the current housing prices suggest that most of these are not on the property market.

Simplistic to say the least.  If you have family abroad I am sure it pays to have a few rooms available for them to use when they visit you.  How very dare they suggest I have too many rooms available and should let them to the great unwashed (Only joking  ;D).  instead of inviting my children and grandchildren to stay with me awhile. 
"Life gives to all the choice. You can satisfy yourself with mediocrity if you wish. You can be common, ordinary, dull, colorless, or you can channel your life so that it will be clean,vibrant, progressive, useful, colorful, rich". Spencer W. Kimball (Calimachon is not a Mormon nor is she in any shape or form religious but she thinks this applies to all humans and more so to a Humanist!  :)

Offline Chevalier Blanc

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Re: Population
« Reply #77 on: January 25, 2012, 10:13:24 AM »
People who come here to earn more money then what they would back home do not mind living 4 or 5 to a room because it means they can send more money home. Also there are hundreds of these people over here and they were not put on the census form because the landlord does not want to show the income tax office that he or she is getting more money than what they show on their tax form. The more cheap labour that is in this island the more money the employer gets through low wages. So do not expect the Establishment party to really try to stop the foreign workers coming in.

Offline man in the street

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Re: Population
« Reply #78 on: January 25, 2012, 04:25:11 PM »
 a chap i know went to a house the other day  to do a job,  every available room was for sleeping in amongst other domestic activity.

Offline danrok

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Re: Population
« Reply #79 on: January 25, 2012, 05:36:53 PM »
a chap i know went to a house the other day  to do a job,  every available room was for sleeping in amongst other domestic activity.

Did they have a shed?  Perhaps there was someone living in that as well.

That may sound like a joke, but I have seen people living in sheds, and other assorted hovels, here in Jersey.

It's about time housing woke up, and did their job.

Offline jerseydaz

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Re: Population
« Reply #80 on: January 25, 2012, 10:24:29 PM »
I know several people who live in what could loosely be termed "chalets". I also know one guy who recently, whilst I was shooting his back field had a visit from the relevant department to discover if he was living in his "shed". By the time he had finished asking the civil servant to define living, permanent structure, when did a shed become a residence, was a field a viable registered address, and if he grew broccoli instead of flowers did it alter the situation in the eyes of the law.  I was on the floor crying and the desk jockey looked like a dose of 12 bore no.5 shot would be the only thing to improve his day. Thank God for obstinate old Beans with a wicked sense of humour. Thank you Winter, your priceless. 

Offline boatyboy

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Re: Population
« Reply #81 on: January 26, 2012, 12:10:05 AM »

jerseydaz

Rarely do I do one liners but your last post............excellent................ big grin in this house.


BB

Offline man in the street

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Re: Population
« Reply #82 on: January 26, 2012, 03:22:42 PM »
 ah, the 10x9 garden shed or " jersey chalet" the  workers accomodation  of the 70's and  80's  non quallis , many who came to jersey, lived in one of these,  if you had a space on your bit of turf, some one was living in it.
 no doubt it still goes on.
 fair play to jerseydaz's  mate winter , as a bean  he should live in any structure  he feels fit and if on his land do as he wishes .
 i note that in the census there were 130 , ish  portacabins and boats being occupied
 

Offline Mark Forskitt

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Re: Population
« Reply #83 on: January 26, 2012, 03:48:49 PM »
For anyone who cares to investigate the details there are some very interesting exceptions to the 'normal' housing provisions applicable to agricultural settings still extant.

Offline man in the street

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Re: Population
« Reply #84 on: January 27, 2012, 04:32:00 PM »
where can i find this mark?
For anyone who cares to investigate the details there are some very interesting exceptions to the 'normal' housing provisions applicable to agricultural settings still extant.

Online Jerry Gosselin

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Re: Population: 3,740 more flats than ten years ago...
« Reply #85 on: February 04, 2012, 02:11:36 AM »

I have also e-mailed Duncan Gibaut to clarify whether the traditional methodology used for calculating the number of dwellings was altered for last year's census. Certainly, on the face of it, there has been a huge increase in the number of dwellings over the last decade- from 32,704 dwellings in 2001 to 44,696 last year- a rise of 36.5% (compared to a rise of about 14% between 1991-2001).


Last week Mr Gibaut replied to me with reference to my dwellings query. His response seems to confirm my belief that the very high increase in the declared number of dwellings is partly due to a change in the way dwellings are defined. Here are some relevant points:

1) Subtle change in the definition of a household-

In the 2011 census, the definition of a household was any person or group of people who share cooking facilities and living space. As soon as a person or group of people had their own cooking space, or a separate living space, then they were considered to be a separate household. In the 2001 census, a person or group of people became a separate household when they had their own living room and didn't regularly share a meal together. Only a very small number of household structures would have been affected by this definitional change.

2) Definitions were simplified in 2011.

"Therefore, each household (once identified according to the above definition) was said to occupy one dwelling." - direct quote from Mr Gibaut's e-mail to me.

To me, the above statement confirms that, for example, a typical lodger household occupying rooms within someone's private house must have been counted as a separate dwelling for this census, provided it fulfilled the census definition of a separate household.

3) "Therefore the 2001 number of dwellings isn’t equivalent to the number of dwellings in 2011." - direct quote from Mr Gibaut's e-mail to me.

Now compare the census definition of a dwelling with that of the States Planning and Environment Department (quoted from the glossary of the 2009 Island Plan Review- Draft Island Plan White Paper):

Dwelling: The definition of a dwelling is a self contained unit of accommodation. Self-containment is where all rooms in a household are behind a door, which only that household can use. Non-self contained household spaces at the same address should be counted together as a single dwelling. Therefore, a dwelling can consist of one self-contained household space or two or more non-self contained spaces at the same address.

http://consult.gov.je/portal/ipr/dp?pointId=1243508654790#section-1243508654790

So forgive me if I am wrong here but it seems to me that the States Department responsible for planning matters defines a dwelling as a self-contained unit of accommodation, where all rooms in a household are behind a door, which only that household can use. Yet the States Statistics Unit has ignored this definition and counted all separate households as separate dwellings in the 2011 census, regardless of whether they could be said to occupy self-contained units of accommodation or not.  ???

Question: So what is the correct number of dwellings in Jersey (according to the P&E definition) and what was the real increase in the number of (P&E definition) dwellings over the last decade?

Answer: Mr Gibaut's e-mail to me doesn't reveal that. Neither was it revealed in the relevant Census bulletin. Perhaps it will appear in the full census report later this year... or perhaps it won't. Perhaps it will prove to be impossible to re-calculate the correct number of P&E defined dwellings in the 2011 census.

How on earth can the States possibly make accurate forecasts of future housing needs in the island when they no longer even know how many real dwellings there are, let alone agree on a single definition of what a dwelling actually is?  >:(   >:(    >:(   >:(   >:(   >:(   >:( 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 01:37:54 PM by Jerry Gosselin »

Offline boatyboy

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Re: Population
« Reply #86 on: February 04, 2012, 09:17:51 AM »

As someone who has a deep interest in the population and census issue Jerry, what would the Government have to gain ( or lose ) by presenting the figures on households differently compared to 2001?

bb

Online Jerry Gosselin

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Re: Population
« Reply #87 on: February 04, 2012, 04:44:51 PM »
As someone who has a deep interest in the population and census issue Jerry, what would the Government have to gain ( or lose ) by presenting the figures on households differently compared to 2001?

bb

There is no simple answer to this. It also depends on whether or not one is referring to national governments or to our own administration in Jersey, which has its own unique political agenda.

With regard to household definition, Jersey has simply copied changes that were implemented for the UK national census last year. In turn, the UK has to ensure that any changes it makes satisfies various international obligations to ensure the results can be compared with other countries. For example, there is the July 2008 EU Regulation on Population and Housing Censuses, as well as the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe's 2006 Recommendations. Therefore I would suggest that there is no evidence of political motivation at island level connected with the most recent changes to household definition.

However, with regard to dwelling definition, I am far less certain how to answer your question because my initial research suggests that by changing the definition of a dwelling for the 2011 Jersey census in order that the number of self-contained units of accommodation can no longer be established, the island authorities appear, on the face of it, to have completely disregarded the established best practice adopted for last year's UK mainland census (and for previous UK and Jersey censuses).

To back up my claim, I have pasted below two relevant extracts from the March 2010 proposals for the 2011 Census of Population in Northern Ireland, which helps explain what was going to be asked there with regard to the type of accommodation and why it was going to be asked (and I presume Northern Ireland's proposals would have been drawn up in order to follow those similarly recommended for England, Wales and Scotland):

Quote
3.32 The Census will provide information about the accommodation occupied by each
household. It will also provide a count of dwellings, including vacant dwellings, and
of dwellings shared by two or more households. This will show the way in which the
housing stock is being used and will provide a firm basis for assessing current and
future requirements as the number and type of households change. No other data
source gives such comprehensive information on housing stock at both national and
local level.

Quote
3.35 Questions on the type of accommodation occupied by the household and whether or
not that accommodation is self-contained will be used to identify separate dwellings
and the characteristics of the accommodation in dwellings shared by two or more
households. Households accommodated in caravans and other temporary structures
will be identified. Central government, local district councils and other users have
confirmed the ongoing importance of collecting this data to facilitate analysis of
changes in housing supply and demand, to understand variations in multi-occupancy
and to identify deprived areas.

http://www.nisranew.nisra.gov.uk/census/pdf/proposals.pdf

Now here is a further explanation of the UK census definition of a dwelling (although it does not mention the 2011 definition) which I have copied from the Communities and Local Government website:

Quote
"... the 1991 Census defined a dwelling as structurally separate accommodation. This was determined primarily by considering the type of accommodation, as well as separate and shared access to multi-occupied properties. The 2001 Census defined dwellings as either containing a single household space or several household spaces sharing some facilities.

A 'household's accommodation' (a household space) is defined as being in a shared dwelling if it has accommodation type 'part of a converted or shared house', not all the rooms (including bathroom and toilet, if any) are behind a door that only that household can use and there is at least one other such household space at the same address with which it can be combined to form the shared dwelling. If any of these conditions are not met, the household space forms an unshared dwelling. Therefore a dwelling can consist of one household space (an unshared dwelling) or two or more household spaces (a shared dwelling)."

http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/housingstatistics/definitiongeneral/

So taken together, the above three quotes suggest to me that the UK has in past censuses as well as the most recent census, defined only self-contained units of accommodation as constituting separate dwellings. Furthermore, this was the definition used in Jersey prior to the 2011 census and is in line with the Jersey Planning & Environment Department's Island Plan definition that I highlighted in my previous post yesterday.  However, this baffling change in definition locally means that all separate Jersey households, whether living in self-contained accommodation or not, were lumped together and classed as individual dwellings for last year's Jersey census. As the first of my three quotes above emphasises, the census data source is regarded as providing the most comprehensive information on housing stock at both national and local level. Yet in its current form, the dwellings information gathered from Jersey's 2011 census will be next to useless in terms of future island housing and planning requirements unless the Statistics Unit can go back to the original data and re-extract the information to identify the number of self-contained units.

Who might gain political capital from this? Well at the most basic level, the Jersey lay person was told last month to accept that the number of dwellings officially increased by an astonishing 11,992 over the last decade. In reality, I would estimate that the actual rise in the number of dwellings (but in this case only counting self-contained units of accommodation) was probably no more than half that figure- the majority of them grossly-undersized flats built by Dandara for the owner-occupier sector, particularly those islanders who have not yet had children, or whose children have grown up and left home.  Given that the island's most obvious problem is a shortage of housing, any statistic which leaves the layman with the impression that the island's government over the last ten years has managed to oversee an unprecedented rise in the number of dwellings might well leave that layman with a more positive opinion of the level of competence in government than is actually deserved and justified.

Unlike the UK, which has seen a change in political administration between censuses, Jersey's administration does not change in terms of political complexion- only in terms of individual personalities who come and go from government. Therefore, unlike the UK, where the current administration would do anything to avoid showing the previous administration in a good light, Jersey's current administration continues to include those who were extremely influential in policy formation a decade ago, most obviously, Senator Philip Ozouf Junior. So you can see that on one level at least, the strange decision to change the way dwellings are counted can do the present executive no harm at all. If we were living in a proper democracy, the Scrutiny system would already be planning to investigate and question ministers and heads of department to discover the reasons why this crucial statistical change was implemented, apparently departing from best international practice in the process.

But we're not living in a proper democracy, so don't even expect a backbencher to be brave enough to stand up and ask questions about it on the floor of the house.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 04:58:37 PM by Jerry Gosselin »

Offline man in the street

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Re: Population
« Reply #88 on: February 04, 2012, 05:52:50 PM »
 i do hope that someone in the house will stand up and ask the question.
 imo , the census did not have  enough questions  and  i was quite shocked at the lack of questions , and  as i was  filling it in ,  wondered how  it was possible to build a map  for the future of  our nice island .
 but then   we would have no need for outside  survey's and the out flow of cash to pay for disregarded  reports.
  i have a copy of the economic survey from the 70's written by g.c.  powell. ma (cantab) fine hardback edition   and cover allsorts  of  things in jersey at that time .
 from it i deduce  that the goverment are still talking  about the same old things  , with  little head way .

Online Jerry Gosselin

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Re: Population
« Reply #89 on: February 06, 2012, 03:32:41 PM »
i do hope that someone in the house will stand up and ask the question.
 imo , the census did not have  enough questions  and  i was quite shocked at the lack of questions , and  as i was  filling it in ,  wondered how  it was possible to build a map  for the future of  our nice island .

Yes, I was also disappointed that the States failed to use this census as an opportunity to include more questions on matters of local concern, as they have done in the past. My explanation is that this is all part of the current administration's underlying contempt for the census as a means of gathering information. When I say administration, I am not just referring to elected politicians here, but obviously I have to be careful with my words. ;) Don't forget that we were scheduled to have a census back in 2006 until the Ozouf executive put an end to that one too. I reckon that if it were not for our international obligations, they would have tried to do away with the ten-yearly census as well.

Why would they have such contempt? Put simply, they have realised that the soon-to-be implemented ID Cards/Population Register regime will enable them to get census-standard information on a permanent basis all-year round and use any incriminating results gathered against the individuals concerned. Whereas the census only allows them to obtain such data for one night every decade and incriminating census data cannot be used to prosecute individuals.

So the census is purely about gathering statistics. However, the ID Cards/Population Register is more concerned with policing the population; it will not only enable the government to identify every citizen living in every residence at any time, it will make it far easier for them to pursue individuals who owe arrears of tax or social security, or to uncover previously undetectable petty offences (e.g. failing to declare lodgers/ failing to register to vote/ failing to notify DVS of a change of address... the potential list of 'crimes' is almost endless). Once evidence of criminal behaviour has been identified by the Register, the information can be used to prosecute individuals. It is a method of dataveillance that is about to be introduced- try googling that word!

This dataveillance regime will become a reality courtesy of the following two pieces of legislation, due to be introduced fully in August 2012:

Control of Housing and Work (Jersey) Law 201- / Draft Register of Names and Addresses (Jersey) Law 201-.

Sleep well- Big Brother will soon be watching you!  ;)