Treasury Minister Ozouf in battle with Shenton.

[boatyboy]

It looks like Phillip Ozouf has got his sums right.

JEP

But Treasury Minister Philip Ozouf has fiercely denied the claim. He says that the deficit is around £63 million and that under a deal made years ago, it will be made up by past and present employees, not the taxpayer.

http://www.thisisjersey.com/news/2011/11/11/new-fears-over-pension-deficit/

End

I think the £63 million refers to the deal made in 1987, leaving a large sum to be paid off by the States and this is the figure outstanding years on. It does appear that Phillip Ozouf is completely correct reading the report below.

A member posted this

http://planetjersey.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,342.msg16511.html#msg16511

States Members are reminded that PECRS is not a conventional final salary scheme whereby employees are guaranteed a pension related to their final salary and the employers have sole responsibility for meeting a deficiency.

The 1987 PECRS Law transferred the underlying risk of the Scheme to Scheme members, but allowed the employers to contribute to any deficiency should they choose to do. If the employers choose not to exercise this option then the position is that any deficiency, which is not carried forward to the next valuation, will have to be made good by members of the Scheme by –

http://www.statesassembly.gov.je/documents/reports/18637-49249-2132006.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The document explanation above looks straight cut and dried, so how has Ben Shenton got a different meaning ? Could a Minister with to much power have signed a new agreement behind closed doors in favour of the public sector pension plan that finds itself in trouble being paid for by the taxpaying public, and kept quiet ?

BB

[moot]

Here is a JEP article of 12 April 2006 - Déjà vu ?

Pensions debt ‘bigger than Rainy Day Fund’By Ben Quérée

FINAL salary pension schemes will have to go and retirement age will have to be put back as the Island moves towards another pension crisis, according to Senator Ben Shenton.
Pension debt has outgrown the Rainy Day Fund, he says, and could become a millstone around the necks of the next generation.
Senator Shenton told Institute of Directors members yesterday that an ageing population and overgenerous pension deals for civil servants would create a serious problem for the next generation of Islanders.

[moot]

'No way out' of pension shortfall
By Harry McRandle
THE States is effectively stuck with nearly £200m of public sector pensions deficit, according to new reports issued today.

Comptroller and Auditor General Chris Swinson believes it would not be in the wider interests of the Island to radically change the schemes, as it would make it very difficult to recruit essential front-line service personnel from the UK.
In effect he concludes that switching to schemes that would be less of a burden on taxpayers based on contributions rather than benefits would make it virtually impossible to recruit enough doctors, nurses, police officers and teachers from the UK.
JEP Published 9/4/2008

[moot]

JEP – 01/02/03
Pensions ‘could bankrupt Jersey’
STATES pension liabilities could bankrupt the Island, the Jersey Life and Pensions Society has warned.
The society says that both the Social Security Fund and the Public Employees Contributory Retirement Scheme (PECRS) are facing significant shortfalls, in part due to poor stock market performance. Finance president Senator Terry Le Sueur (pictured) acknowledges there are ‘warning clouds on the horizon’. He says the value of the underlying assets of the Social Security Fund which pays out States old age pensions has fallen by around one-third in the past two to three years, in line with the FTSE index. Senator Le Sueur said that although in June the triennial report from the government actuary had been ‘encouraging’, he did not expect future reports to reflect the same optimism. He said: ‘Pension funds are a long-term operation and it’s a problem for everyone. As I have said in the past, the Social Security Fund is really the bottom line on which people are encouraged to make their own provisions for old age.’ Ian Shepherd, the president of the Jersey Life and Pensions Society, said: ‘If people think they can rely on the state, they are sadly mistaken. Unless they put aside savings themselves, no one else is going to do it for them.

[moot]

JEP Article 3rd May, 2006

Taxpayers to fund pension shortfallBy Harry McRandle

SHORTFALLS in the teachers’ pension fund are to be met by an annual injection of £1.3m a year from taxpayers’ money.
The Council of Ministers has agreed to meet the cost of the shortfall but Chief Minister Frank Walker said the money was already included in financial forecasts and would not have an adverse effect on future budgeting.
‘We are budgeting for it and we can cope with it,’ said Senator Walker.
The Council of Ministers has confirmed that £1.3 million will be added to the cash limits of the Education department in 2007 to meet the additional cost of the employer’s contribution.
Meanwhile Senator Walker said that two decisions taken by the States last year relating to the main pension scheme of States workers firmly dealt with any possible future black hole.

[moot]

Comment from Sen Shenton this is Jersey 11-11-11
The figure in the 2010 accounts is £526 million deficit in respect of the Public Sector Pension and £241 million deficit in respect of the Teachers Final Salary Scheme. The £63 million figure quoted by Senator Ozouf relates to a 2007 estimate (i.e. 4 years ago) based on the Public Sector Pension only. A copy of the accounts is available from the States Bookshop to check. The PAC is a Committee made up of politicians and members of the public. This is a PAC Report, not a Ben Shenton Report.

[boatyboy]

Moot this is obviously an interest of yours. I think the CTV report  Friday evening was just appalling, a sixth year student could have done a better job doing thirty minutes research.

Two heavy weight politicians appeared and Ben Shenton says the pension deficit  could be as much as £750 million and Phillip Ozouf says £63 million.

Had the interviewer done some basic work she could have at least put together some basic coherent questions like,

1)   I have read that there are three seperate main pensions, the general population i.e. social   
      security, the public sector, and the teachers could you explain to which you are referring to
      and are there any others affected ?

2)     The teachers pension has been topped up by the taxpayers by £1.3 each year 
        am I right in suggesting that this is at the discretion of the States ?

3)   The 1987 agreement says the public sector pension fund, " as Treasury Minister   
        Ozouf has underlined " is a stand alone separate pension fund that is not the       
        overall responsibility of Jersey's Government. Has anything changed to make any     
       deficit now the responsibility of the Government and by extension the taxpayer?


Open for debate,  and hopefully moot maybe you can help with some more detailed answers, although the States are not transparent in the information available which is puzzling, as a pension affects most people.

So what is it £750 million or £63 Million ? 

Boatyboy.

[moot]

BB I am not very good with figures but I am in doubt that Shenton and his committee had all the facts when producing their report. Ozouf makes out that they are fools and using the wrong set of figures. I don't think so and think that Ozouf is the fool or rather an ostrich with his head in the sand
Shenton says that islanders are perhaps under the false impression that Jersey's finances are balanced and in good order. Not true, he says, pointing out that in 2010, operating expenditure was £935.9 million which exceeded exceeded total revenue - £745.7 million - by about £190 million.  In the interview Ozouf seems to agree. These are very scary figures and if this continues Jersey could go bankrupt !

It is very scary to see Ozouf come up with this pointless waffle whilst he is in charge of all our hard earned cash. Someone should remove him asap for all our own good !

Yes, I agree - our local media reporting is far too flippant, careless, sloppy and complacent. It does the island no good at all

[Chevalier Blanc]

Well now ozouf has lost the treasury job no matter who is the new CM. Great news!!!!

[Chevalier Blanc]

Well just heard that sir phil  would have ozouf or gorst as treasury minister,

[Bachus]

Perhaps Jersey could take an example from Greece?
How about a hair cut of 50% on all Civil Service salaries from this point on?
Unsupportable means exactly that , it is ludicrous to pretend that we can continue the "Jersey Way" = an increase in 2 grades as you approach retirement if you are in the Civil Service in the last 5 years of yours employment. It would be much fairer to evaluate a lifetimes employment in the civi lservice as to a percentage of time spent at each relevant grade in the service = employment at x grade 1 +grade 2 + grade 3 += whatever.... other grade devided  ,,,by years of service .That is a simplistic answer , but given that most pension rights are based on last 5 years of employment ,probably a better deal to the tax payer than the current situation. It aint rocket science!

[man in the street]

i have 15 to 17 years to go before  retirement ( if i live that long).
 guess what i will get from my employer ?
 not a sausage , the last chap to retire  didnt even get a meal out.

[boatyboy]

Do Turkeys vote for xmas ?

This older post by Roger Bale may be of interest.

http://planetjersey.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,980.msg12493.html#msg12493

BB

[Calimachon]

Well now ozouf has lost the treasury job no matter who is the new CM. Great news!!!!

Sigh of relief! 

[Chevalier Blanc]

Great no ozouf for treasury.