The Windturbine story.

[boatyboy]

After the dive club annual meeting, a discussion started about Wind farms.
The good news is that they are efficient, quiet and provide much needed diversification away from nuclear and fossil fuels this was my belief.

One of our diver friends smiled broadly and confessed he worked in the industry. The reason they are breeding like rabbits is because of Brussels starting a kitty all of the wealthy nations having to contribute. I seem to remember the figure given for the UK was a rather large £500 million. Now here comes the crunch if you decide against Brussels rules and do NOT build then you cannot use the kitty. It’s a bit like being at a stag night putting your money in but not drinking yourself. So off went requests for thousands of turbines.  I asked our  friend and in the know windmill man if he thought they were worth the investment. He said it was just a scam and that they will wear out before giving a return and worse household electricity bills will also reflect the cost of windmills.

I was truly sad at this news, I thought they were a step in the right direction.   
More on the subject, for those that want to keep the lights on, and the fields green -  part of the article click the link to read the full item.

By Christopher Booker

Mail Journalist.

The first is the pretence that turbines are anything other than ludicrously inefficient.
The most glaring dishonesty peddled by the wind industry — and echoed by gullible politicians — is vastly to exaggerate the output of turbines by deliberately talking about them only in terms of their 'capacity', as if this was what they actually produce. Rather, it is the total amount of power they have the capability of producing.

The second great lie about wind power is the pretence that it is not a preposterously expensive way to produce electricity. No one would dream of building wind turbines unless they were guaranteed a huge government subsidy.

This comes in the form of the Renewables Obligation Certificate subsidy scheme, paid for through household bills, whereby owners of wind turbines earn an additional £49 for every 'megawatt hour' they produce, and twice that sum for offshore turbines.

This is why so many people are now realising that the wind bonanza — almost entirely dominated in Britain by French, German, Spanish and other foreign-owned firms — is one of the greatest scams of our age.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1361316/250bn-wind-power-industry-greatest-scam-age.html

[verystandrew]

Wind farms produced less power than ever last year despite an increase in the number of turbines, new annual energy statistics show.

http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/news/Worst-year-wind-farm-energy-drop-wind-speeds/article-3405684-detail/article.html

[Calimachon]

What are the alternatives then, or should this be discussed in a new topic.  What about Hydrogen?  I believe the first Hydrogen cars are about to be released.  I like the Peugeot!

New Thread here:

http://planetjersey.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3043.msg50745/topicseen.html#msg50745


"Unlike gas and oil, when hydrogen burns it releases no CO2 emissions, merely water vapour, offering the opportunity to significantly cut Britain’s domestic carbon footprint. Stored hydrogen can also be reconverted to electricity using domestic fuel cells or generators to power lighting or other electrical appliances, removing the inconvenience of power cuts for homes and serious supply interruptions for hospitals, schools and businesses."

Cali

[man in the street]

no british makers then , just the rest of the world, if the brits made there own kit , the maybethey would , leave our furfillment industry alone..
 if we in jersey are to  embrace alternative energy , lets do it quicker than e gaming for example.

[Fritz]

It takes a lot of time to turn a profit on, "Alternative Energy", so "E-gaming", wins hands down as far as Jersey is concerned. ( Even although we are decades behind on either).

[Mark Forskitt]

Cali, Hydrogen is really storage mechanism, rather than a power source. 

The whole issue of pricing of power is critical.  The investment in larger scale power generation is a multi-decade decision.  It all relies on making guesstimates about the future price of different forms of power and generation capabilities.  Nuclear appears cheap for us today, but there are real doubts that the price charged reflects the actual lifetine costs.  Add in a review of the security and safety at nuclear plants, and the costs of upgrades. We may find our dependence on French nuclear turns from a cheap ride to a costly millstone.  Power like food and water supply is a strategic resource.  You have to make risk analyses about continuity of supply, contingent actions etc  over the long term.  A single point of failure in water, food or energy supply is a risk we should be trying to avoid. Two or even  three interconnectors to a single source does not overcome that.  The alternatives, even if appearing costly per unit generated today could do that. 

[Calimachon]

"Cali, Hydrogen is really storage mechanism, rather than a power source."



Could our good tidal system not be a source of power for storage with Hydrogen technology then?

Cali

[boatyboy]

If Christopher Booker is correct and is able to come to these conclusions why is Government not able to see through the scam. That is the billion pound question ?
The Sunday Telegraph, paragraphs quoted are selective, to read full article please click on link.

What happens when the great fantasies, like wind power or European Union, collide with reality?

If it hasn’t looked too hot for the theory on which our politicians base their plans to change the world, then last week it looked equally dodgy for what has been one of the most grandiose of their responses to this supposed crisis. Two sets of figures exposed more than ever the degree of delusion which surrounds the wish of our governments, in Brussels and in Westminster, that the centrepiece of our energy policy must now be to build even more windmills.

The report that drew most media attention was that from a Scottish environmental charity which focused on the fact that last year, despite our building yet more turbines, the lack of wind meant that they operated, on average, at only 21 per cent of their capacity – the lowest percentage ever. Several times, when demand was at record levels, the contribution of wind to our electricity supply was virtually zero.

Less attention was given, however, to figures put out by the Department for Energy and Climate Change, showing that the 3,168 turbines we have built, at a cost of billions of pounds, contributed on average, if very irregularly, only 1,141 megawatts to the national grid last year – less than the output of a single large coal-fired power station. From the DECC figures it is possible to work out that, for this derisory contribution, we paid through our electricity bills a subsidy of nearly £1.2 billion, on top of the price of the electricity itself.

Thus, in return for less than 3 per cent of our electricity, nearly 7 per cent of our billls were made up of hidden subsidies to the wind developers, a percentage due to treble and quadruple in coming years as the Government strives to meet EU “renewables” target by building up to 10,000 more turbines, at a cost of £100 billion. The dream of using the wind to keep our lights on is being shown by reality to be one of the most absurd fantasies of our time.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/8440423/What-happens-when-the-great-fantasies-like-wind-power-or-European-Union-collide-with-reality.html

BB

[Calimachon]

Is the hydrogen storage technology efficient?

If so doesn't it make sense to embrace this type of storage facility and thereby diversify into different types of power sources (be it wind, ocean, coal or whatever may be invented in the future) to feed into this source of storing power?  It would mean that extra electricity manufactured instead of being wasted can be used and then when a new form of technology becomes available, in the future as a power source, the hydrogen technology can still be utilised, unless, of course, a better method of storage is discovered. 

Cali

[!CaveMan]

If we could have a way of trapping seawater after a high tide in a bay thats not used by people and drain it back thro water turbines like the Rance power plant, then that looks like a reliable way to generate electricity for this island.

[Chevalier Blanc]

It seems that the Wind Turbine project is another false statement on being green. The same as Climate Change which has now been proved to be a con. It has made a lot of money for some people.
The cost of making  and maintaining wind turbines causes more damage to the earth and for what electric you get out of it cannot supply the planet.
Think how much money has been made on the back of going green. The oil companies made us turn to Non Leaded Petrol but the truth is that it costs them less to product non leaded petrol than leaded. Also the chemicals used are more harmful than lead. So how much has the oil companies made out of us?
The truth normally finds it's way out into the public domain.

[danrok]

Wind power is not an "absurd fantasy".  It is, what it is.  When the wind blows you have power, and when there is no wind you don't have power - obviously.

The plan here is that all these European wind farms are to become part of a future European super-grid.  The idea being that it will be windy enough somewhere in Europe, at almost all times.

If you have enough wind turbines, spread across a wide enough area, then it is possible to generate a worthwhile amount of energy.  Of course, all those turbines are very expensive.

But, go ask Japan how cheap they think nuclear power is now!

Wind turbines are far from ideal, but so far, no-one has come up with the perfect ideal solution for energy.

[danrok]

If we could have a way of trapping seawater after a high tide in a bay thats not used by people and drain it back thro water turbines like the Rance power plant, then that looks like a reliable way to generate electricity for this island.

The Rance dam is built across the Rance estuary.  I don't think it would work so well in Jersey,  a bay would not work.  You'd have to allow a large area of land to flood at high tide, e.g. the parish of Grouville.

In any case, we are most likely already using power from the Rance power station.

I think we are best to leave power generation to the competent French, and not the States of Jersey/JEC, who think burning household waste to make electricity is a good idea.

[Calimachon]

What about ocean power technologies.  I also think stopping water escaping from a bay would be rather a drastic plan, let alone if run by our 'so efficient' government.

Here is a website that shows a use for ocean power and we all know there are hundreds of buoys around our island and they could be put to dual use, even triple use if we use them as telephone masts.  Not sure if the telephone mast idea would work, unless you put them into pools in the centre of the island.  Please don't reply to that only a little joke!  Duh!  You didn't think I was serious did you? 

I thought one of the islands was installing or getting installed a red snakelike apparattus  as a pilot scheme that was supposed to investigate the possiblility of utilising ocean power.  I have been searching for information about it but nothing has come up.  Are found one here:

http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/news_detail.cfm/news_id=9069   though could be a hazard to crafts.

Other prominent pilot schemes:

http://www.unenergy.org/index.php?p=1_49_Wave-Power

Cali

[danrok]

I thought one of the islands was installing or getting installed a red snakelike apparattus  as a pilot scheme that was supposed to investigate the possiblility of utilising ocean power.  I have been searching for information about it but nothing has come up.

That would be Alderney.  I'd imagine that there is more potential for tidal power there, because Jersey is in a relatively sheltered position.

http://www.are.gb.com/index.php