Author Topic: Overseas Aid.  (Read 1147 times)

Offline Chevalier Blanc

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Overseas Aid.
« on: July 21, 2009, 12:23:41 PM »
I believe that we should give to overseas aid but with the situation as it is with the money at the moment in the island with no pay rises etc then we should not give more in aid as some politicians want to do. It is true that charity should begin in the home before giving else where. There are people and we know there are who are just about keeping their family's head above water and some who are half drowned. So to ask for more money to give to overseas aid makes it a bit to much to swallow.

Offline stoneface

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Re: Overseas Aid.
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2009, 04:55:58 PM »
I don't think the State should be in the business of handing out overseas aid. Freely donating your own money to charity is virtuous, taking from others to give is not.

Perhaps instead we should make donations to charity tax-deductible? That way people will be encouraged to donate what they can afford.
"The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good, in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it." - John Stuart Mill

Offline stoofa

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Re: Overseas Aid.
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2009, 07:50:53 PM »
Quote
I believe that we should give to overseas aid but with the situation as it is with the money at the moment in the island with no pay rises etc then we should not give more in aid as some politicians want to do. It is true that charity should begin in the home before giving else where. There are people and we know there are who are just about keeping their family's head above water and some who are half drowned. So to ask for more money to give to overseas aid makes it a bit to much to swallow.

Have you ever left Jersey? Even the poorest here are well off by international standards, even relative to the UK let alone the place where this overseas aid goes..

We are one of the wealthiest places in the world - and the amount we give in overseas aid is pretty pitiful relative to GDP. I don't think its a case of 'taking' from people to give to others, such actions by a government represent the country as a collective whole - and given our fortunate position I think we are morally obligated to provide some charitable support to poorer countries, whether this happens individually or at a governmental level.

On a practical level I think donation by government works as its pooled- the level of contribution if it was left to people individually would probably plummet, if only through lack of awareness and inertia, rather than lack of desire.

Quote
Perhaps instead we should make donations to charity tax-deductible? That way people will be encouraged to donate what they can afford.

On a more factual note, over £100 they are, in a manner similar to the UK gift aid system. The Comptroller will gross up the donation and pay the 'tax' on the donation to the charity - link to the relevant form below.

http://www.gov.je/NR/rdonlyres/2D34A195-B111-405E-A766-3A0EFD28DBB7/0/R10lsd.pdf

Offline stoneface

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Re: Overseas Aid.
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2009, 08:21:21 PM »
I don't think its a case of 'taking' from people to give to others

It is, lets not pretend otherwise. Paying for anything with taxes means taking money from someone under threat of violence and imprisonment. We must always remember this, because it ought to set a high bar for what tax money can be spent on. It's not like we can temporarily adjust the overseas aid budget downward because your aged grandparents, or the low-paid street sweeper can't afford their tax bill. The Income Tax Department will simply chase them until they get it or the person is in jail. Yes, this is extreme, but it is what we as a society have decided to do to people who don't pay up.

I think we are morally obligated to provide some charitable support to poorer countries, whether this happens individually or at a governmental level.

Let your morals inform and guide how much you give, but neither you nor I am in a position to make that decision for anyone else.

On a practical level I think donation by government works as its pooled- the level of contribution if it was left to people individually would probably plummet, if only through lack of awareness and inertia, rather than lack of desire.

Actually, the empirical evidence does not support this. I can't seem to find it now (I will keep looking), but I saw some research that compared public charity to private charity, and there was a strong negative correlation - those countries that relied less on public largess had a stronger private charitable sector. When the government donates in our names, we tend to stop doing it ourselves. It is also worth noting that in the Victorian era, the average person gave 10% of their income to charity. They didn't need the government to do it for them, so we shouldn't either.

On a more factual note, over £100 they are, in a manner similar to the UK gift aid system. The Comptroller will gross up the donation and pay the 'tax' on the donation to the charity - link to the relevant form below.

http://www.gov.je/NR/rdonlyres/2D34A195-B111-405E-A766-3A0EFD28DBB7/0/R10lsd.pdf

Indeed, but this is little known, and lets be fair - how many people make donations over that size? All those ten-pound-a-month direct debits don't count. I would prefer it to be an entry on your tax form because people will, knowing the box is there, make use of it because they will know it lowers their visible tax burden. The current system may be functionally equivalent, but it's a question of perception. Let's make use of the human desire to stick one to the tax-man!
"The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good, in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it." - John Stuart Mill

Offline man in the street

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Re: Overseas Aid.
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2009, 03:46:06 PM »
i give £20pound a month to the el shaddi group in goa, but do not put it on my tax form, no a lot when you look at the price of a couple of drinks in town for me and the wife .
however when we are cutting the grand vaux youth /family services and leaving the infirm to fend for themselves.
it makes my blood boil to here that we are giving a shed full of money to some poor nation.
(i have travelled btw)
 charity, should begin at home in these tough times.
shame the public never seems to have a say which place gets the leg up with overseas aid.

Online Calimachon

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Re: Overseas Aid.
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2009, 04:50:02 PM »
Do we ever get to see where the overseas aid money goes and which NGO's get a share.

I was friendly with a guy from Sierra Leone who ran an NGO he had to pay to travel through road blocks manned by the rebels to get to his village up north to take medication and hospital equipment to his people.  He risked his life it was a terrible place at the time.  All because of the diamond wars.  I felt sick when he showed me the photographs of the poor children as young as six and seven who had their hands severed because they would not join the rebels. 

The death rate for mothers giving birth was extremely high as well and the country was in a total shambles.  I lost touch with him after he crossed the border into Liberia.  Never to be heard of again.  Hope he is ok.

Just a view of how it was at the height of the civil war there.  We are indeed very lucky here in Jersey.

Cali
"Life gives to all the choice. You can satisfy yourself with mediocrity if you wish. You can be common, ordinary, dull, colorless, or you can channel your life so that it will be clean,vibrant, progressive, useful, colorful, rich". Spencer W. Kimball (Calimachon is not a Mormon nor is she in any shape or form religious but she thinks this applies to all humans and more so to a Humanist!  :)

debumblebee

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Re: Overseas Aid.
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2009, 05:25:54 PM »
We used to give £12 a month to an African orphan but decided to knock it on the head when we were still getting childish letters from this alleged orphan 10 years afterwards. Charity does belong at home but it is difficult to trust some charitys sometimes. 

rogueelement

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Re: Overseas Aid.
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2009, 06:18:14 PM »
It is a fact of life that "Nation " States like Jersey ,with a huge annual GDP compared to the rest of the World , are obligated to provide Overseas Aid , if they wish to remain credible.
what I would like to do is ensure that someone like Kevin Daly who has worked so hard over the years in Africa ,should be in control of it , instead of gifting it to some dictators retirement fund.
Kevin , is Jerseys' answer to Bob Geldof, and I am entirely sure that he would get the money to where it matters. Which is not to the run of the mill charities , which appear to have haphazard results from their expenditure.Targeted ais as opposed to general aid would be brilliant.
ps
No need for extra civil servants , one honest man is worth more than 10 of the buggers.

Online Fritz

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Re: Overseas Aid.
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2009, 06:36:02 PM »
"Official Charities", keep up to 70% of income for administration costs.

I,d rather just give a few quid to someone who needs it than let 30% eventually filter down to them.

Offline man in the street

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Re: Overseas Aid.
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2009, 07:04:21 PM »
i have heard of kevin daly, what a smashing idea.

Offline stoneface

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Re: Overseas Aid.
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2009, 07:45:32 PM »
i give £20pound a month to the el shaddi group in goa,

I think this ought to count towards Jersey's overseas aid commitments. Why shouldn't it?

States like Jersey [...] are obligated to provide Overseas Aid , if they wish to remain credible.

Should we? Yes. Are we obliged? No. To not help your fellow man when you can is wrong, but so is robbing Peter to pay Paul. I simply don't think we need to have an Overseas Aid Budget because left to themselves Islanders are a pretty charitable bunch anyway and will still give. Forcing them to give whether they want to or not gives the process less credibility, not more.

"Official Charities", keep up to 70% of income for administration costs.

Try: http://www.intelligentgiving.com/ - they review charities so you know what they're doing with your money.
"The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good, in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it." - John Stuart Mill

debumblebee

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Re: Overseas Aid.
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2009, 07:59:51 PM »
I guess if they did not make a donation then the critics of the finance industry would be onto them. Mind you the seminar held by ATTAC with Christian Aid probably left a bitter taste in some peoples mouths. It was not thought out properly though especially when Jersey was White listed days afterwards.

Online Calimachon

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Re: Overseas Aid.
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2009, 09:33:21 PM »
Tell us more about Kevin Daley please.

Cali
"Life gives to all the choice. You can satisfy yourself with mediocrity if you wish. You can be common, ordinary, dull, colorless, or you can channel your life so that it will be clean,vibrant, progressive, useful, colorful, rich". Spencer W. Kimball (Calimachon is not a Mormon nor is she in any shape or form religious but she thinks this applies to all humans and more so to a Humanist!  :)

Offline moot

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Re: Overseas Aid.
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2009, 09:50:49 PM »
Tell us more about Kevin Daley please.
Cali

I now Kevin and used to work his late sister
He is a great guy and does a hell of a lot for charity - is the organiser of the North Coast Challenge 20 mile walk in Sept in which I take part every year. here is a link :
http://www.hast.org.uk/

Offline moot

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Re: Overseas Aid.
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2009, 10:03:41 PM »

There is a local charity called ACET which give advice islanders with AIDS
http://www.aegis.org/news/bbc/2004/BB041003.html

Sometime before this latest cry for funds Mrs Ruddy who runs the show was on the frontpage of the JEP
She was quoted as saying that she would have to close down the charity of she didn't get more funding from the States
In the interview she was asked what she was being paid to run this small charity which only had one full time and one part time member of staff
He reply : £49.000 per year !!!!

Some charity !