Author Topic: 17th of March 2009  (Read 2100 times)

Offline Adrian

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17th of March 2009
« on: March 16, 2009, 07:14:08 PM »
This is the most important day in Jersey history since 9th May 1945. I've talked to people about this and all the outcomes from this and it will be the biggest day in Jersey history since 9th May 1945.

Offline Ashley

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Re: 17th of March 2009
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2009, 02:47:00 AM »
Why's this then?

Online GeeGee

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Re: 17th of March 2009
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2009, 03:02:30 AM »
This is the most important day in Jersey history since 9th May 1945. I've talked to people about this and all the outcomes from this and it will be the biggest day in Jersey history since 9th May 1945.

Let us hope and pray that SS is listened to and gets the hearing he deserves. He has put a lot of work into this and a positive outcome could herald big changes, so badly needed.

Somethings got to give - there are too many negative rumblings in the Island at the moment.

Good luck Stuart

Offline the 13th parish

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.

Offline Ashley

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Re: 17th of March 2009
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2009, 03:14:48 AM »
Oh I see, didn't realise that was today.

Good luck to him. I guess having some professionals look at the situation wouldn't be a bad thing.

rogueelement

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Re: 17th of March 2009
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2009, 03:39:07 AM »
Yes ! St Patricks day ! whooopppeeee!

Offline Durendal

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Re: 17th of March 2009
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2009, 03:41:20 AM »
Oh I see, didn't realise that was today.

Good luck to him. I guess having some professionals look at the situation wouldn't be a bad thing.

Why don't we keep having investigations until SSS gets the result he wants.

Bit like monkeys with typewriters, given enough time they will come up with the works of Shakespeare

Offline Ashley

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Re: 17th of March 2009
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2009, 03:53:14 AM »
I'm quite sure SSS doesn't have the power to keep this going ad nauseam.

If he's wrong and it's all nonsense then no one has anything to fear and he'll immerge with his pants around his ankles.  Otherwise justice will be done.  It's a no loose situation.

rogueelement

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Re: 17th of March 2009
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2009, 04:02:04 AM »
I disagree, it is a major lose /lose situation because the image of the Island having been battered from pillar to post by the trash Sunday Papers , will again come under scrutiny by these same bottom feeders , because one man insists on trying to bring down our government.

Offline Ashley

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Re: 17th of March 2009
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2009, 04:11:45 AM »
I disagree, it is a major lose /lose situation because the image of the Island having been battered from pillar to post by the trash Sunday Papers , will again come under scrutiny by these same bottom feeders , because one man insists on trying to bring down our government.

I think the islands rep/expectations of respect went down the drain when 200 people came foward to police claiming that they'd been abused by carers at HDLG. 

The only way to regain repect is to have the thing fully investigated in the best and most thorough way.   

Just look at what the Nuremberg Trials did for Germany.  Sure, they had egg on their face for a couple of years - small price really for killing 6 million people.  20 years after that everyone was pals again and the occassional joke was thrown their way.  They've recovered from that and done alright from since - even though they killed about 300 people for every day that's past since the war finished!

Offline cpcarrot

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Re: 17th of March 2009
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2009, 04:22:51 AM »
Ever heard of the domino effect? I hope Senator Syvret has at the very least thought out exactly where this particular route could ultimately lead because at times it’s hard to see that he has.

If the court case succeeds, and Judicial review of the decision basically results in what Senator Syvret says he is hoping to achieve, i.e. the British Government stepping in and appointing it’s own prosecutors and judges, what do you think will happen? No nation that even wants a pretence of being self governing, would allow another country the ability to just step in and take over their Judicial and legal system (which is what the British Government would be doing). Through the process of Judicial review they could effectively remove any legislation they didn’t like that the States of Jersey passes. Through the same token they could basically have the Courts rule for what was best for Britain and not necessarily Jersey. That sort of thing would quite likely be an instant termination of the Jersey Finance industry and certainly a removal of the ability to self govern. It is not simply a case of the British Government sweeping in to sort out the Child Abuse situation and then going away never to be seen again. Once it has been done once, the precedence has been established and it will always be viewed as likely to happen again.

Now do you honestly expect Jersey to just stand aside and hand over its autonomy? Anyone think that all the previous talk about obtaining full independence if the necessity occurred was just hot air?

Basically, if Senator Syvret succeeds in forcing the British government to interfere with the Jersey legal process, I would expect that Jersey will move to obtain full independence pretty shortly afterwards. Now it’s a different discussion on if you think this is a good or a bad thing, but in summary the end result of this court case could end up doing the exact opposite of what Senator Syvret is seeking to do and end up making Jersey even more self contained and less susceptible to influence from Britain.

Offline Shiva

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Re: 17th of March 2009
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2009, 04:55:15 AM »
I think the islands rep/expectations of respect went down the drain when 200 people came foward to police claiming that they'd been abused by carers at HDLG. 

The only way to regain repect is to have the thing fully investigated in the best and most thorough way.   

Just look at what the Nuremberg Trials did for Germany.  Sure, they had egg on their face for a couple of years - small price really for killing 6 million people.  20 years after that everyone was pals again and the occassional joke was thrown their way.  They've recovered from that and done alright from since - even though they killed about 300 people for every day that's past since the war finished!

To even think about comparing the Holocaust to the HDLG investigation shows just how small minded and pathetic some of the people on this Island are. This comparison is, to some extent, perpetrated by SSS who continues to refer to "survivors" when referring to alleged victims of abuse. The Nazis did not kill "6 million" people as you state, The Jewish Holocaust refers to the 6 million Jews who were exterminated by the Nazis. If you include the other victims such as the mentally handicapped, homosexuals, gypsies etc. the true figure is somewhere between 9 and 11 million people who were murdered in the Nazi extermination camps.

To compare horror on this scale to a couple of hundred people alleging varying degrees of mental and / or physical abuse during their childhood is obscene. I fully support the rights of any victims of abuse to receive justice but can we please keep things in proper perspective?

Offline Ashley

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Re: 17th of March 2009
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2009, 05:04:04 AM »
You've turned my post on it's head.

Where did I directly compare them?

The point was simply that regardless of whether SSS gets his way or not - the long term reputation of the island, in my opinion,  would not be that badly tarnished.  Admitedly, I choose the most extreme example.  But as extreme as it is, Germany are highly regarded so in my own little world, my point stands.


Offline Adrian

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Re: 17th of March 2009
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2009, 05:58:20 AM »
Ever heard of the domino effect? I hope Senator Syvret has at the very least thought out exactly where this particular route could ultimately lead because at times it’s hard to see that he has.

If the court case succeeds, and Judicial review of the decision basically results in what Senator Syvret says he is hoping to achieve, i.e. the British Government stepping in and appointing it’s own prosecutors and judges, what do you think will happen? No nation that even wants a pretence of being self governing, would allow another country the ability to just step in and take over their Judicial and legal system (which is what the British Government would be doing). Through the process of Judicial review they could effectively remove any legislation they didn’t like that the States of Jersey passes. Through the same token they could basically have the Courts rule for what was best for Britain and not necessarily Jersey. That sort of thing would quite likely be an instant termination of the Jersey Finance industry and certainly a removal of the ability to self govern. It is not simply a case of the British Government sweeping in to sort out the Child Abuse situation and then going away never to be seen again. Once it has been done once, the precedence has been established and it will always be viewed as likely to happen again.

Now do you honestly expect Jersey to just stand aside and hand over its autonomy? Anyone think that all the previous talk about obtaining full independence if the necessity occurred was just hot air?


Basically, if Senator Syvret succeeds in forcing the British government to interfere with the Jersey legal process, I would expect that Jersey will move to obtain full independence pretty shortly afterwards. Now it’s a different discussion on if you think this is a good or a bad thing, but in summary the end result of this court case could end up doing the exact opposite of what Senator Syvret is seeking to do and end up making Jersey even more self contained and less susceptible to influence from Britain.


If Jersey went independant it would last about 6 months to year. Jersey is serious trouble, the British government owns the banks now. These banks have tax avoidance schemes that used Jersey to get out of paying billions of pounds a year in tax to the UK. How long do you think the british government will take to close down that loophole. Anyway when finance goes Jersey will have to go begging to the UK or GB and we will be in a treaty of Versailles situation, take it or leave it.

Offline King Rollo

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Re: 17th of March 2009
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2009, 06:51:30 AM »
Just a ref to 'autonomy' with regard to Jersey and the legal first rung of Senator Syvret's ladder:

Crown Dependencies are possessions of The Crown in Right of the United Kingdom, as opposed to overseas territories or colonies of the United Kingdom. They comprise the Channel Island bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey and the Isle of Man in the Irish Sea.

Being independently administered jurisdictions, none forms part of the United Kingdom or of the European Union. All three Crown dependencies are members of the British-Irish Council. From 2005, each Crown dependency has a Chief Minister as head of government. However, as they are possessions of the British Crown they are not sovereign nations in their own right, and the power to pass legislation affecting the islands rests ultimately with their own legislative assemblies, with the assent of the Crown (Privy Council). (Source Wiki)


My own view is that SS will not succeed today, simply because the UK has better things to be getting on with and to be frank, nobody over here really gives a tinkers cuss if Jersey sinks or swims, not being rude but folks are more worried about their jobs, mortgages etc.  The good times are over, as they are on the mainland, one can either wallow in self pity and lament the good old days or look to fresh business oportunities which I believe TLS will, given the time in office, take Jersey forward. Some of the remarks on SS blogsite are awful, considering he moderates himself he must be aware of the damage it has done, not internationally, but more importantly to people living on Jersey who regardless of their jobs or past employment, do not deserve such attacks outside of the court system.

The recent storm surrounding swearing in government, well it was teacup stuff really, so JP has a short fuse and let us be honest about it, he was provoked and the man responsible knew what he was doing! 

Issues such as child abuse always polarise communities and Jersey is no exception, but one gets the impression that if you agree with SS then you are okay, if you challange then you are immediatley slotted into the "one of them" camp, or as he calls it, the establishment.  There is only one way to sum up the establishment, love them or hate them, they have served Jersey well since (and during) the war and when all is said and done, what was the alternative? There will always be rich and successful people in the world and who better to run the country or island?  We tried socialism and labour over here and look what happened, the labour party had to clone themselves with the Tories to ever have a hope of getting into power again, now there is no difference between the two, barring personalities and a few minor policy issues in the margins. 

Cover ups, well it is unfortunatley one of the ways which successive governments have hidden embarassing issues from the general public, sometimes for their own good. It is called democracy folks and we all have to learn to look the other way sometimes, hard but true. In a perfect world everyone would get justice but life just isn't like that and quite often the outcome of justice can rupture the society which it is supposed to serve. Think of what is happening in Zimbabwe and go back to 1980 when the world applauded GB for stepping in and showing great humanity and justice for overseeing the handover of power. I was there and well remember one of the Zanu officers whispering to me and tapping his AK47 as he handed it over "you do realise that as soon as you go home, Nkomo is a dead man!"