"Healing on the streets - Jersey" Irresponsible, callous fools.

[Ashley]

You may of may not have seen these people handing out flyers on the streets of St Helier.

Just so you know, I've called them up and they're serious. I shall be emailing them a link to this thread so they can join in/explain themselves.

Let me start by explaining the flyer that was handed to my girlfriend on Saturday in queens street. The underlining was added by me.

Titled:-
NEED HEALING?

Hook:-
GOD CAN HELP YOU TODAY!
Body:-
Do you suffer back pain, arthritis, MS, addiction, cancer, ulcers, depression,
allergies, fibromyalgia, asthma, paralysis, crippling disease, phobias or any other sickness?

We'd love to pray for your healing right now!

We are Christians from the churches in Jersey.
We believe that God loves you and can heal you from any sickness today.  Please take a seat.

It wont cost you a thing - just a moment of your time.

You have nothing to lose, except your sickness!

church office tel:720934
email churchoffice-stlm@jerseymail.co.uk


Ok, so you've read that massivle pile of horse ****. How do you feel about it?  I'm clearly not religious, neither am I sick. If I was sick though I would be in 10 times the rage I am now. 

Who do these people think they are, potentially filling sick people's heads with utter rubbish about GOD HEALING THEIR SICKNESS TODAY!?  This has to be the worst case of misrepresentation I've ever come across. 

These people have no right whatsoever to peedle this rubbish and they should, in my opinion, be investigated for this.  You simply cannot go around giving people with cancer ridiculous ideas about God healing them when there is no God and they actually need to get themselves into some serious, proper medical care.

I'm really not sure where to go with this - It's made me so angry that I can't even get my head around it.

What do you think?  Should they be allowed to do this? I notice they're not offering gods help with the credit crunch.

[newmac]

This sort of marketing makes me sick

If anyone wants to find out about religion of any kind, they can go to a church or contact a priest.

[Jerseyite]

I don't quite understand where you're coming from Ashley.  I doubt that the leaflet was forced upon your girlfriend and I doubt very much anyone insisted that she be prayed for, so why does her being handed this leaflet make you so angry?  Surely it's no different than being handed a leaflet enticing you to go to some natural herb remedy convention, a night club or even to some town shop sale.  You don't have to abide by the leaflet, but the offer is there should you wish to take it up.

I'm a Christian although I don't go to church and have nothing to do with this team of people going around town either, but I do believe in the power of prayer and have seen God heal too....Yes, even the healing of someone close to me who had Cancer.  People suffering with some sort of sickness or disease should (in my opinion) seek proper medical care though, because although God CAN heal, whose to say that at any one particular time He WILL?  If you read that leaflet carefully, I can guarantee you that these people aren't professing that God WILL heal you but that He CAN.  Whether you believe it or not is up to you.

Anyway, if you feel so strongly about this, then I assume the person you'd need to make your complaint to would be Simon Crowcroft (Constable of St Helier) because it's likely they got permission from him to be able to distribute their leaflets in town.

[Ashley]

Jerseyite, they're advertising the fact that God will cure peoples illnesses today, if they get in touch.  Do you believe that God is going to fly in the face of 2000 years of doing nothing to actually cure people of cancer?

'God can heal'?  With all due respect, are you taking the Mickey?  We have hospitals, big fat ones, full of sick people, even Christians, who, if given the choice between a prayer and a doctor, the majority would choose the doctor - because the doctor has been trained to do his job.  You may have a friend who had cancer and got over it but I'm certain they had medical help along the way.

These people (the church flyer gang) have no medical experience whatsoever, probably no relevant qualifications at all but they're walking around, potentially spreading false hope that can only be bad for the health of anyone with a serious illness.  It's irresponsible and an opportunistic, cowardly, pathetically cynical way to recruit weak minded, desperate people into their gang of church goers.  If I had my way, they'd be on some sort of charge for this.  They're actually actively aiming for the people in need the most.  It's a disgrace and should have been outlawed the last time it was attempted, in the middle ages.

As for the leaflet.  It was pretty much forced into her hand.  Regardless, in big bold letters it said HEALING. She asked me 'who wouldn't read it with a title like that'? 

[Chris]

A night club or even to some town shop sale.  You don't have to abide by the leaflet, but the offer is there should you wish to take it up.

Except when you go to a night club you get what is advertised, or at the sale.
Not, as below, "Maybe".

I'm a Christian although I don't go to church and have nothing to do with this team of people going around town either, but I do believe in the power of prayer and have seen God heal too....Yes, even the healing of someone close to me who had Cancer.  People suffering with some sort of sickness or disease should (in my opinion) seek proper medical care though, because although God CAN heal, whose to say that at any one particular time He WILL? 

Did said person go to hospital, at all? Did they get Chemotherapy or take any medicines?
If so, I think it's rude to say it was god, I mean it's not like you saw it happen did you? But if there was medical help think of the people who actually helped said person.
 I know this is touchy territory, religion.

But I think it's quite remarkable to see you say "He can heal, but sometimes he doesn't".
The kind of nonsense you'd expect.

I don't believe in your god, but mine would heal all.

[Ashley]

It can be a touchy subject but it's one I absolutely think needs adressing openly and frankly in this instance.  This, in my opinion, is VERY serious.

[Jerseyite]

Did said person go to hospital, at all? Did they get Chemotherapy or take any medicines?
If so, I think it's rude to say it was god, I mean it's not like you saw it happen did you? But if there was medical help think of the people who actually helped said person.
 I know this is touchy territory, religion.

Ok, I'm not going to get into an argument on this subject because I'm of the opinion that everyone is entitled to believe what they want to believe and I'm not here to convince anyone otherwise.  Like I said, despite being a Christian, I'm not a church goer and I'm not any kind of preacher either, I am just a believer.

In answer to your question though...

Yes the said person (my mother) did get hospital treatment although she refused to go as far as having chemotherapy or radium.  Her doctor records detail that an unexplainable miracle happened in her case and that she is now free of cancer.  Yes I did see that healing happen and do believe it was through God and prayer rather than through any other medical intervention.  However, neither she, I or anyone else in our family would deny the fact that doctors do a good job and all will seek the attention of a doctor should the need arise.

Ashley, I'm honestly not taking the mickey but like I said, if you feel so strongly that you don't want this sort of thing on the streets of St Helier, then complain to the constable.

[Ashley]

I shall indeed be bringing this to the attention of the constable before too many weak minded people put all their hope in the church and forget about actual medical care.


*he's away at the mo - shall speak with his P.A. this afternoon.

[Chris]

Ok, I'm not going to get into an argument on this subject because I'm of the opinion that everyone is entitled to believe what they want to believe and I'm not here to convince anyone otherwise. 

Agreed, you can believe what you want.

But on to what this topic is about, it's when those people started bringing their beliefs into the public.
It's as bad as knocking on my door talking about god, you know my father let them in a couple of times then they stopped coming, not even a good bye. I don't expect they really want people to listen that much as he did.

I'm a firm believer in keeping somethings to oneself, especially religious beliefs.

[cpcarrot]

Without wanting to delve into what is sure to be a very sticky religious debate, I shall skirt round the religious issue of if prayer can heal or not, and answer your question which was “Should they be allowed to do this?” and to answer it simply, the answer is yes.

Why? Basic human rights of freedom of religion and freedom of expression. You don’t have to agree with a persons belief’s but at the very least it is important to allow them to continue believing them and allow them the opportunity to freely express themselves. A person has every right to chose to believe in Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, Atheism or there own version of whatever they believe. They also have the right to freely express themselves and voice opinions, information and ideas to others, which from what you have listed is all that this group has sought to do. The only restrictions to the right of expression is those prescribed in law and are usually restricted to such things that are likely to incite a crime, or offend public decency, of which I would have to say I do not believe this does.

I might believe someone is an idiot for voicing a certain belief, and will happily disagree with him and voice my own beliefs instead, but I would certainly defend his right to say it in the first place. Or to use George Orwell “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

In terms of speaking to the Constable about it, I suspect what with the whole Human Rights law he would find it difficult to say no to something like this. Article 9 provides for freedom of religion and Article 10 for freedom of expression, so I doubt you would have much luck stopping it unless the leaflets contain something that is actually contravening a law.

They might annoy you with what they believe and the way they are expressing it, but just remember you have the right to completely ignore them, or even to tell them where to shove it (in a non threatening way of course  ). People use the public stage for all sorts of things, many of which you are going to disagree with (think back to the last elections and see how many views you disagree with were present there), you shouldn’t be censoring people just because you disagree with them.

[Ashley]

But they're lying.  There is no god and they certainly will not 'lose their sickness'.

I might as well hand out leaflets saying that I can heal cancer too.  It's the same thing. I can't and neither can praying.  It's absolutely beggers beleif that these people are peddling this and it makes me sick.  They've no proof either way, they're simply trying to increase their numbers in a very cynical way.

[rogueelement]

Put your hand on your computer screen and heal in the name of (select.perm any 1 from 56)
Ashley you are more than entitled to your opinion, you are obviously a strong minded individual , with your own code of ethics and morality.
I like to think , tho several of my "friends " may disagree that I am similarly strong minded,but the one thing I believe I would never do , is browbeat anyone of a different creed to myself.Everyone is entitled to an opinion and/or a belief. Who are you or I to criticise people who actually believe they are doing good, be it Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses,(oversubscribed by a factor of 50 with regard to entrance to the Ark, by the way) Hindus , Moslems  snakecharming, winedrinking, firewalking evangelists,7th day adventists, chuck them in a boiling pot and eat their hearts, spiritualists,throw them in a volcano and appease the fire god, pagans , Wikka , WOTEVA!.It is what they believe they must do to help their fellow man and all we have to do in return is say "no thanks".
Anyone who is desperate and has come to the end of standard medicinal treatment may be inclined to venture into the above areas, what harm might that do? If it offers hope to desperate people then good luck to them.I hope never to be in that position.

[Ashley]

Had the flyer said: Are you bored, lonely, without friends, depressed, looking for someone to talk to, stuck for something to do on a Sunday, wanting to get involved in the community etc then I would have embraced it as a nice little opportunity for someone who fits the bill to find a little ray of sunshine in their lives. There's no harm in people joining the church - it's their lives, if they want to do that kind of thing it's totally fine.  What's not fine is when they start claiming that they can cure cancer.  It's nonsense. I'd like to see the stats on it - I doubt there is any but does anyone here think that praying Christians are more likely to recover from cancer than normal people?  If there's strong support for this then please let me know and I'll wind my neck in a bit. 

We all (mostly) know it's rubbish, I think we would have heard about it if it was true.  These people should not be going around making crazy claims to already desperate people. 

The idea that God 'sometimes' helps and sometimes doesn't is an absolute cop out too.  The doctors who lose their patients certainly don't write it off as Gods handy work.  The whole thing is a complete nightmare and these church people are trivialising it by saying these things.

Yes, I've had a massive rant over this.  I can't apologise for it though.  I have zero respect for these dreamers.

[danrok]

Yes the said person (my mother) did get hospital treatment although she refused to go as far as having chemotherapy or radium.  Her doctor records detail that an unexplainable miracle happened in her case and that she is now free of cancer.  Yes I did see that healing happen and do believe it was through God and prayer rather than through any other medical intervention.  However, neither she, I or anyone else in our family would deny the fact that doctors do a good job and all will seek the attention of a doctor should the need arise.

Ashley, I'm honestly not taking the mickey but like I said, if you feel so strongly that you don't want this sort of thing on the streets of St Helier, then complain to the constable.

A friend of mine, in London, has helped people cure themselves of cancer.  He does homoeopathy and hypnotherapy.

This is not a miracle or some magical cure.  The fact is that the human body fights cancer all the time, it is normal.  If a smoker quits smoking during the early stages of cancer, they stand a good chance of fighting it off.  Hypnotherapy simply assists the patient in staying positive and believing that they can get well again.  If the mind gives up, so can the body.

Claiming that this is the work of God, is a scam, in my view.  Religion belongs in the dark ages, back in times where ignorance was used, by the ruling elite, to take advantage of people.

[stoofa]

But they're lying.  There is no god and they certainly will not 'lose their sickness'.

I might as well hand out leaflets saying that I can heal cancer too.  It's the same thing. I can't and neither can praying.  It's absolutely beggers beleif that these people are peddling this and it makes me sick.  They've no proof either way, they're simply trying to increase their numbers in a very cynical way.

I find it pretty objectionable in so far as people may go without proper medical treatment if they believe this works. Many alternative therapies are in the same boat though. The difference is you generally pay for them so you have to be a little careful what you promise...

Religion has been offering up unsubstantiated miricles and life after death for millenia though. According to my devout christian friend I am going to suffer eternal torture in hell just because I don;t believe god exists, while he will enjoy happiness forever in heaven. Thats one hell (excuse the pun) of an aggressive marketing pitch :-)