Who should pay for church repairs ?

[boatyboy]

JEP

THE Town Church could close if The Dean does not get the Christmas present that he wants – £1.1m to cover internal renovations.

I am uncertain as the charity given to places of worship by the non religious taxpayer. Of course whether you worship Buda, God or any other religion, thats is completely your business. It is a fact that the wealthy Catholics church,holds priceless works of art, with a commercial portfolio worth milliloins.

Closer to home, the town church has already had a million pounds worth of rate payers money spent on it during 2008, and the church is asking for another one point one million spending on it. Simon Crowcroft is asking the States for help. I suggest asking the organisation to put its hand in its own pocket and pay for the repairs itself.

The second issue is that should, the 2.1 million be spent, it makes this particular church elitest, when we as the public are asked to give five pounds a month to feed a family in Africa. Gods children too ? or is a town church more important. I thought the church preached against materialism. My view pay for it yourselves, we have given enough.

BB

Sorry no link, but easily found, not on my own computer,   

[Ashley]

Church repairs?  Isn't vanity a sin? 

In my opinion, they need to call up their head office, speak to whoever's in charge and ask them for some money.   I can no longer see the justification in taking the public's money in order to keep these self serving anachronisms ticking over.  They're not for public use, no matter what the people running it may say, they're for people who believe.  I don't believe, in fact, I'm against it, so why would I want my tax money wasted?

While we're on the subject; how many churches does the island need?  There's about 10 times as many churches as there are nightclubs, and I don't know a single regular church goer.  Also who are the people that are being served by all these places being kept open and where are they?  Get some closed or transformed into god free community centers that everyone can enjoy.  I'm sure if god loved the people left over who still wanted to go to church, he would have provided them with the means to transport themselves a mile down the road.  Maybe even lay on a big lovely bus for them all.  Is that least he could do considering his efforts over this credit crunch business.  Nice one GOD!!!

I forgot to mention: Don't get me stared on religion!

[danrok]

I don't support organised religion.  That's where you'll find some of the world's worst hypocrites!

I haven't been Christened, I won't be getting married in a church, or having my funeral in one.  Of course, I have attended funerals in Churches where the deceased was a member of that Church.

I would have thought most people who are not religious don't get married in church?  You don't have to get married in the registry office either, there are other places which have licences for weddings.

I'd be happy to see tax payers money used to repair historical churches, but only when the C of E has run out of money.  They still had a bundle the last time I checked.

[Ashley]

I would like to say I bet a lot more people will go to church when things go wrong, as they will have nowhere else to turn to, especially when money and governments fail them.

I would absolutely agree that the church is the last refuge/resort to some weak minded people.  But why keep and fund so many if they're not being used? It's money down the drain for old times sake.

Also, there is no law that says that if you believe in all that stuff that you have to go to church - that's so outdated. They're not going to get refused entry into heaven for not going and they're not going to get a better cloud with nicer views if they do.  
I guess when there was absolutely nothing else on whatsoever, that going to church on Sunday was, dare I saw it, mildly exciting.  It doesn't seem the case anymore.  

Perhaps what the fair thing would be is to keep open the favourite churches and redevelop the rest.  Then tax all church goers for the upkeep of their hobby.  That sounds entirely fair to me.  Obviously you'd have to keep the graveyards going for 50 odd years until they were only used for drunks and dog walkers.

I don't see this as a materialistic thing.  If it were though - you could easily argue that it is the 'church' who are being jealous of their possessions are who are not willing to share the spare space that they have - in fact, they're asking for money from the masses to keep things sweet for the minority.  Utterly shameful in my opinion - But we're not supposed to question this because of some reason, which I absolutely cannot fathom.

BTW - well up for tomorrow. Christmas is great.   We should defo keep it.  Perhaps a name change could be in order.  I'm going to propose 'Family Day'.  It's a bit lame but it gets the point across.  Maybe someone else can came up with something better.

[danrok]

I don't know if it is right to say that something should not be paid for by all of us, if it is only used by a minority.  Many public services are only used by a minority.

I don't have kids, but certainly don't resent making a contribution to schools.

[Ashley]

I don't know if it is right to say that something should not be paid for by all of us, if it is only used by a minority.  Many public services are only used by a minority.

I don't have kids, but certainly don't resent making a contribution to schools.

Yes but you did go to school to get an education and you believe in the education of the people who will be running the planet in the future.

Not wishing to pay for churches is an entirely different discussion - especially for me, when I'm of the opinion that religion is the biggest load of fantasy going.   The thought of me contributing my hard earnt money towards a few peoples made up, alternate reality actually makes me feel ill.  Why shouldn't the people who visit these places pay a lot more towards these things?  It's a small price for eternal salvation, in my opinion.  You can guarantee that half of them would think about knocking it on the head if you did tax them for it.  You can bet that the dean knows this too - hence why he (probably) hasn't tapped up the people who use the church.  He should try the old *you can't spend it in heaven, children* line.  Could play a blinder with that one.

[Ashley]

Many questions!  I should be wrapping presents!

Ashley I bet if a devil type thing turned up most would **it their pants and be clamouring to go to church and be believers. It is funny how self preservation makes most do anything to save their own skins isn't it?

If the devil himself ever turned up, I'd be the 1st person down the church.  Not because I'm a hypocrite, but because there'd actually be some justification for religion, a bit of proof.  As it is it's just a crutch, in my opinion.

Yes you have a point ref church upkeep however why is it some denominations look after their own churches yet the so called state religion can't be ****ed to pay for theirs? If they can't pay or won't pay give them back to the catholics I'm sure they would manage to find their own money for them .They were after all catholic churches before a certain person decided one divorce wasn't enough so he made up his own religion and took over the catholic churches, maybe his decendents as defenders of the faith should pay? That would be interesting don't you think?

Perhaps.  Not sure the Queen lays claim to many of the churches.  Pretty sure they're not in her property portfolio.  Might have to check that and get back to you. 

Either way.  The people who use them should be overwhelmingly happy and gracious to hand over a decent fee for teh use of the church and its services.  Like I said; it's a very small price to pay for the peace of mind and the comfort that the church must give them - not to mention the 'love of god' and the chance to go to heaven.   If I believed in that I'm certain that I would be ready to support it, all the time.
 

Maybe there should be a tax leeved on those who are interested? An interesting point that, as it would mean all those not interested would not be interested in getting married in them or having a religious blessing on death or being burried in a grave yard? Maybe some other form of disposal could be arranged for these type of people not interested in this form of religion? Believers would be in their rights to say none contributors go to the crem, or a sea burial might be preferable so that those of other creeds can go back to nature and feed the fishes and crabs? Yes this is an interesting proposal I wonder how many would be happy with a sea burial? It would cut down on cost no end, as people seem to value money highly now maybe this is a win-win solution for them?

If people are so vain that they want a church wedding then clearly the church should charge for weddings.  Same goes for burials.  Everybody is responsible for their own lives, including their deaths.  If they want special treatment then special treatment should cost special prices.  Who are we to demand the eternal claim to 3 square meters of space on this planet?   
Naturally, people should be offered cremation for free, or at least for a cost to those who can afford it.  Bodies have to be disposed of for the well being of everyone else.

So I take it Ashley you are happy to build on grave yards and would be happy to by a house built on one? I still think the church is a better investment for your money than the government at least they give you unlimited entertainment without charging you extra as a user pays policy which the government uses. The government gets money from the masses so those who don't want to contribute can have a better life. Is this right in a fair and just society, at least the church doesn't penalise the poorer in our community like this.

The church preys on the poor and needy in order to make up the numbers.

I'd be happy to see some old grave yards transformed into nice areas for everyone.  There doesn't seem much space available anywhere right now.

I think as Christmas is not celebrated by the majority, as they aren't interested, then they should loose these religious holidays through out the year and work. So they could work 5 extra days for nothing and save their employers some money? What do you think? Is it fair that non believers should get religious days off? Also as Sunday is set aside for religion maybe they could work a six day week and have their day off on Saturday as they aren't that way inclined? This would help those who wish to go to church on a Sunday and so that those not interested are prepared to forgo these previledges set aside for those of a religious disposition what do you think?

Absolutely.  Let's work 6 day weeks, scrap bank hols and have 100, self chosen, days holiday a year.  Sounds fantastic to me.

[newmac]

I just can't see how they get these figures, 2 years ago 725K was needed over the next 3 years for the work.

http://www.thisisjersey.com/2006/07/25/who-should-pay-for-the-town-church-repairs/

http://www.thisisjersey.com/2006/07/17/work-on-town-church-will-cost-725000/

[danrok]

Perhaps.  Not sure the Queen lays claim to many of the churches.  Pretty sure they're not in her property portfolio.  Might have to check that and get back to you.

You must have heard of King Henry VIII and his six wives!

The Catholic Church wouldn't allow him to divorce, so he formed the Church of England based on his rules.  The Church of England owns the town church.

The Queen is Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

[newmac]

Where does the 57 days a year come from

[danrok]

There's plenty of other people they could ask for the money, not just the Queen.  There's the Synod, and that bunch of Old Eatonians, etc. probably have a combined wealth which exceeds the Queen.  The Church is their play thing, so they can pay for it.

[Ashley]

You must have heard of King Henry VIII and his six wives!

The Catholic Church wouldn't allow him to divorce, so he formed the Church of England based on his rules.  The Church of England owns the town church.

The Queen is Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

Of course I know of Henry - He's a hero of mine.

The Queen is the head of a lot of things. She doesn't pay for any of them.

If I had my way they'd funds themselves.  I'll keep it as basic as that.

[Ashley]

So why should people change their minds because of this? If they are so sure they are right why change just because something turns up? Surely they would just carry on not believing? A bit two faced to me. Either your in or your out, your shouldn't need your arse to be on fire to change your mind.

The Monarchy is the figure head of the C of E church isn't she therefore as the leader she should pay the bills? As I said before the catholics pay for their own why should the state church get tax payers money only, a bit biased if you ask me. Yes you could ask for an upkeep fee but they do have collections every week so it is up to people to pay in enough. Maybe the catholics should get a rebate as they pay for their own churches?

Interesting point are people prepared to go to the proverbial hell because they don't believe or will they be expecting a bye to the next round if they are proven wrong?

As per church weddings it seems a bit daft that most woman want one even if they don't go any other time.

Why can't the fishes look after the dead they get rid of them pretty quite so it shouldn't be a health issue if done properly?

Why does the church prey on the poor it gives them money probably more than the so called government. If people are religious they can go to church if not they can go to the pub if they so wish.

Grave yards used for what, building or just recreational?

I was asking if those of a non religious disposition were willing to forego 57 days off a year as if they have a capitalistic outlook they should be willing to up the machines output. As these are religious days do you think it right that others partake or should they voluntarily give them up as a sign of their non belief? Surely they aren't expecting something for nothing?

Re the Devil - that's just silly.  If he turned up then there would be more than just a story book to account for centuries of nonsense. 

See above post re queen paying.

I'm prepared to go to preverbal hell. Because there is no hell.

Women want to get married in church because they're all mental, insecure and fantasists who want their special day's photos to look fab.

Do we want dead people washing up on the shores?  You'd have to have a PM on them all incase they were murder victims. It's the most insane suggestion I've heard in ages.

Gave yards used for parks would be nice.  Somewhere pleasant - gardens, trees, lawns. 

Haha - religion doesn't own time and space <----- I know they think they do but they don't.  A day or two off once a week is fair enough -regardless of whether god thinks it's  sin or not.  As it happens, people like me are EXTREMELY upset that because of these ridiculous views, I have to forgo certain choices on a Sunday. Why can't we shop as we please, drink as we please, rent a video etc?  It's absolutely bonkers that my life is watered down because of other peoples beliefs.

So, back to the point.  Get someone else to pay for it.

[boatyboy]

The churches on Jersey do not pay rates as all places of worship are exempt. In case you are in doubt, if a couple want a white wedding they will certainly pay for use of the church and the vicar and the choir will be extra. Danrock made a point that the taxpayer pays for minorities why not this one (church maintenance), because the church is a stand alone institution with its own followers and finances.

The simple question is should the popülation be burdened with the upkeep of churches,for the mormon, cathelic, C of E, islamic jewish, and mormon faiths.

If your one of our leaders reading this, when you rejoin the assembly, please ask a simple question, were is it written in law that churches have to be maintained at all cost, by the public purse. Further, Judging by the grand style and value of the rectories, why are the church not downsizing rectors manors, in order to contribute to their flocks place of worship ?

Finally if the C of E get hand outs do all the other religions, if not why not ?

BB.

[newmac]

It could be argued that there is no proper religions, followers of different religions believe theirs is the true/real one.

Is it all churches that don't pay rates and does it apply to all church owned properties?