Author Topic: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?  (Read 29326 times)

Offline Fritz

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Re: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2008, 01:09:42 PM »
What materials should be used for insulation, and how are they produced?

Online danrok

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Re: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2008, 02:02:17 PM »
There are also the comments that the Romans grew grapes up by Hadrian's wall, I am told, and definitely the Vikings had a thriving settlement in Greeenland, growing their own crops too.

Global warming doesn't refer to the weather outside your front door.  It refers to the average temperature of the globe we live on.

If you think they'll be growing grapes in Scotland, whilst we all get a nice sun tan in Jersey, then dream on.

The weather might go crazy, causing a big increase in droughts and flooding, which will result in serious food shortages and rampant disease.

Go ask your local farmer how many crops he/she can grow when it rains every day for 6 months.

Online boatyboy

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Re: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2008, 02:42:00 PM »


Danrock I agree with you partly, but our life span is just a blink a mere 80 years or so. Sarah is correct. If you check out Roman history, Mediterranean crops were being grown in middle England centuries ago.

The basic problem as I see it, and you do not need to be a scientist,  is that only eighty years ago there was plenty of space on this world and clean seas. In such a short time humans are breeding themselves out of existence. So the greater demand for food cars and the whole " support" of the human race the more damaging it will be for the earth we live on.  Strange as it may seem, it will get its own back. It will survive once we have messed up.

BB

Offline Malachi

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Re: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2008, 03:29:40 PM »
As danrok said, 'global warming' and 'climate change' refer to two different but related things.

Global warming refers to increases in the average surface temperature of the earth, which is one of the things that effects the climate; therfore, an increase in global warming will result in a change in the climate = climate change.

I use the phrase 'adverse (i.e. undesirable) climate change caused by accelerated global warming' when I need to be specific.

It's a bit like the difference between a pan of simmering water and a pan of violently boiling water. Global warming refers to the hob whereas climate change refers to the simmering or the violently boiling water. All of the extra energy in the atmosphere results in more violent and unpredictable weather, which could be disastrous for any agricultural systems that rely on reasonably predictable and benign weather patterns/seasons.

Online danrok

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Re: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2008, 03:49:22 PM »
Sarah is correct. If you check out Roman history, Mediterranean crops were being grown in middle England centuries ago.

I'm not disagreeing with Roman history.  Just pointing out that there is potentially a whole lot more to climate change than milder winters.

Also, the world is far more populated now, so anything which has a bad effect on farming will have catastrophic consequences.  How many of us really know what 50 million corpses look like, and do we really want to chance finding out?

Offline Sarah Ferguson

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Re: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2008, 04:40:51 PM »
Fritz - insulation.  Obviously the natural stuff is better - but if it's synthetic or nothing then synthetic is better than nothing! 

I understand there are varieties of processed newspaper and sheepswool around which are commercially available.  I have much enjoyed the more eccentric of the Grand Designs Houses - the straw bale ones and the hand made wooden ones for example.  However I am confined to bungaloid land so no Grand Designs here!

I think the basic thing is that there are two problems which are being muddled up together.  There is the grand discussion on global warming (or not) and then there is a more frugal approach to resources which will generally improve the environment.  As it happens, a responsible approach to resources - using less and using more user friendly ones (no CFCs for example) - should help in the bigger picture of the global position.

The other important thing is for everyone to actually do something - even if it is only switching off the tv.  If you make the problem too big then people will just switch off.  On the lines of "the problem is so big, nothing I do can make a difference"! 

Offline Pomme de terre

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Re: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2008, 04:41:59 PM »
I'm a little late to this thread. Just thought I'd chip in with the source of the main cow/methane (greenhouse gas) report that I am aware of, from the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations in 2006:

Brief intro on wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock's_Long_Shadow

The report itself
http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.htm


Offline Pomme de terre

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Re: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2008, 04:44:58 PM »
Which makes the humble, perma-farting Jersey cow more of a polluter than my rarely driven Lamborghini, of course...   ::)

Offline Pomme de terre

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Re: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2008, 04:46:52 PM »
p.s. I don't really own a Lamborghini...

Offline Mark Forskitt

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Re: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2008, 05:53:10 PM »
What materials should be used for insulation, and how are they produced?

Bats of welsh sheep wool are good - relatively local, sustainable and a good use of hillside grass that won't produce much else very well.
We used Warmcel  - made from shredded old paper.  It is treated for fire resistance to meet building regulations.  The advantage over sheep's wool is that it can be blown into wall cavities and under flooring.  Local installer is Ken Howard.


Online danrok

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Re: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2008, 06:07:29 PM »
It's not just the materials used which needs to be considered.

A well designed and constructed house or building should last a long time, say at least 100 years, without needing major refurbishment.

Take a look a Le Squez estate, a large part of it has now been demolished.  Those houses were only there for 40 years, and were not cheap.  They were knocked down because they were falling to bits, partly due to bad design, and also because the States of Jersey allowed them to fall in to disrepair.

There are houses right next to Le Squez, which are identical houses, except they have always been privately owned.  All of those houses are in excellent condition.  This proves that Housing badly neglected the houses on Le Squez.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 06:10:10 PM by danrok »

Online danrok

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Re: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2008, 06:10:43 PM »
Bats of welsh sheep wool are good - relatively local, sustainable and a good use of hillside grass that won't produce much else very well.
We used Warmcel  - made from shredded old paper.  It is treated for fire resistance to meet building regulations.  The advantage over sheep's wool is that it can be blown into wall cavities and under flooring.  Local installer is Ken Howard.

Is he listed in the phone book?

Offline Mark Forskitt

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Re: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2008, 06:25:29 PM »
Danrok,
Ken Howard has a listing in the yellow pages section under insulation. Look for the Warmcel advert with his mobile number.
(tell him a bloke in St Ouen wants 10% agents fee ;-)

Offline Nick Palmer

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Re: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2008, 07:54:29 AM »
Sorry, still haven't time for detailed replies!

Sarah wrote:
Quote
The real problem is that much of the hype - such as Al Gore's diatribes - is based on faulty assumptions.  The hockey stick graph for a start.  Stephen McIntyre debunked that.  Not to mention the fact that the scales of the graphs used were such that they gave a misleading message. It is quite possible to change the sense of a graph if you change the starting point!

This is wrong but has been widely propagandised by the deniers/delayers/inactivists playing on people's lack of in-depth knowledge to make what appears to be a sledgehammer blow at the foundations which in actuality is irrelevant. There were problems with the statistical analysis of the ORIGINAL graph in 1998 which were spotted by Mcintyre but many other versions of proxy measurements for increasing temperatures have been made since then without the statistical quirks and the results and shape of the graph are still the same http://www.skepticalscience.com/images/1000_Year_Temperature_Comparison.png
 
This  below comes from the American EPA http://yosemite.epa.gov/OAR/globalwarming.nsf/content/ResourceCenterPublicationsSLRCost_of_Holding.html

It shows that awareness of the problem goes back a LOOONG way and that, generally speaking as time goes on, the forecasts are getting more dangerous. Dangerous professional idiots like Lomborg, Singer, Christie and Spencer are speaking as if they are scientists but are, in fact, speaking as professional lobbyists. Some of them MAY HAVE BEEN scientists, but what they are saying mostly is without current scientific credibility. Lomborg, who used to be a denier then mutated into a delayer and is now currently an inactivist (as the science has got tighter and tighter) himself now says that the world is warming and that we are mostly responsible but he disputes the size of the forecast rise in average temperature and claims that we would be better off spending our money on "adapting" to the changes rather than preventing them. Unless you are really close to this subject, you won't realise that many of those who argue against climate change have been constantly changing their stories and arguments since the early 90's whereas climate science has just been getting stronger and stronger and the outlook has generally been getting more and more bleak.

People like Lomborg are like the punk in Dirty Harry faced with the Magnum who risked that Callaghan had fired all of his bullets - did he feel lucky? yes, he did but he still got shot. Lomborg and the rest of the inactivists are like that punk - reckless idiots except that instead of just putting themselves in danger, they are are inviting people to gamble on everybody's future. They are, mad, bad and dangerous to know. Their flawed reasoning should be viewed as almost criminally irresponsible.

Quote from the US EPA
Quote
"At the turn of the century, scientific opinion regarding the practical implications of the greenhouse effect was sharply divided. Since the 1860s, people had known that by absorbing outgoing infrared radiation, atmospheric CO2 keeps the earth warmer than it would otherwise be (Tyndall, 1863). Svante Arrhenius (1896), who coined the term "greenhouse effect," pointed out that the combustion of fossil fuels might increase the level of CO2 in the atmosphere, and thereby warm the earth several degrees. Because the 19th century had experienced a cooling trend, however, others speculated that the oceans and plant life might gradually reduce CO2 levels and cause an ice age (Barrel et al., 1919).

Throughout the first half of the 20th century, scientists generally recognized the significance of the greenhouse effect, but most thought that humanity was unlikely to substantially alter its impact on climate. The oceans contain 50 times as much CO2 as the atmosphere, and physical laws governing the relationship between the concentrations of CO2 in the oceans and in the atmosphere seemed to suggest that this ratio would remain fixed, implying that only 2 percent of the CO2 released by human
activities would remain in the atmosphere. This complacency, however, was shattered in 1957 when Revelle and Seuss (1957) demonstrated that the oceans could not absorb CO2 as rapidly as humanity was releasing it: "Human beings are now carrying out a large-scale geophysical experiment." Only then were monitoring stations set up to measure worldwide trends in atmospheric concentrations. By the mid 1960s, it was clear that Revelle and Seuss had been correct (President's Science Advisory Committee, 1965).

In the last decade, climatologists have reached a consensus that a doubling of CO2 would warm the earth 1.5-4.5°C (3-8°F), which could leave our planet warmer than it has ever been during the last two million years (National Academy of Sciences, 1979). Moreover, humanity is increasing the concentrations of other gases whose combined greenhouse effect could be as great as that due to CO2 alone, including methane, chlorofluorocarbons, nitrous oxide, and sulfur dioxide (Ramanathan et al., 1985). Even with the recent agreement to curtail the use of CFCs, global temperatures could rise as much as 5°C (9°F) in the next century (Smith and Tirpak, 1988). Global warming would alter precipitation patterns, change the frequency of droughts and severe storms, and raise the level of the oceans.
"
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 08:59:55 AM by Nick Palmer »

Offline Nick Palmer

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Re: Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2008, 09:43:47 AM »
Grabbed another few seconds. This page shows the corrected, more modern, "hockey stick" type graphs in more detail than most would want. The global average temperature is still going up and we're still warmer than the mediaeval warm period and it's happening much faster than previously.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/paleolast.html