Global Warming , the facts the facts the facts?

[rogueelement]

As confused as everyone else seems to be on the subject (well apart from the hair shirt wearing tree huggers) I endeavor to seek knowledge where I can.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/453.html
Try that site for a 45 minute refutation of the man made global warming scenario.
No doubt all of the so called scientists appearing here are the running dog , class traitor lackeys of the capitalist blood sucking dragons.
I wish that someone would actually provide a scientific balanced view of the situation instead of the Al Gore type doomsday BS , which appears to be this decades Armageddon of choice. Maybe the video above is it?

[Mark Forskitt]

As confused as everyone else seems to be on the subject (well apart from the hair shirt wearing tree huggers) I endeavor to seek knowledge where I can.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/453.html
Try that site for a 45 minute refutation of the man made global warming scenario.
No doubt all of the so called scientists appearing here are the running dog , class traitor lackeys of the capitalist blood sucking dragons.
I wish that someone would actually provide a scientific balanced view of the situation instead of the Al Gore type doomsday BS , which appears to be this decades Armageddon of choice. Maybe the video above is it?

The trouble rougeelement is that by the time we know for sure it will be too late to do anything about it.  The evidence is pretty clear that climate change (or climate chaos if you prefer) is happening.  There is a small element of doubt as to whether it is man made, ie caused by C02 and other greenhouse gas emissions in the atmosphere from human activity. 

Something often  not explicitly recognized, that is man made and is contributing to the problem is our intervention on a massive scale in the means nature has to deal with the changes we see happening.  We have almost denuded Britain and most of western europe of its forest cover, and are doing similar damage to rain forest right around the world.  This is a rapid and unbalanced change in the ecosystem that seriously compromises the stability of the planetary system. It affects C02 uptake, and oxygen release, it produces soil erosion and the runoff into rivers and coastal regiosn affects marine life, rain fall patterns are disrupted and much else besides. We simply do not fully understand the ramifications of our collective actions. 

Climate change is happening, we have to deal with that.  Human activity is contributing, and its not just C02. Even if we cut greenhouse gas emissions drastically the other aspects of human activity might well still exacerbate the situation. 

I am skeptical there is a simple solution. There is cetainly not an easy one. 
If you  want some evidence and facts that climate change is occurring, I suggest you try the big melt - http://www.carbonequity.info/docs/arctic.html

[Res Nullius]

Mark,

As I see it the world's climate is changing.  However, there is credible argument that this is a cyclical event which is only being pushed on by some small amount by human activity.

If, for arguments sake, all human input is removed from the equation tomorrow, do you think it would make a notable difference on how quick the process would occur?

Is it not possible that a natural disaster, such as a super volcano eruption, could undo in a single violent moment a hundred years of good human behaviour?

[Malachi]

Not really.

The facts:

Carbon dioxide absorbs infra-red radiation = more C02 = more energy being trapped in the atmosphere = more volatile weather.

The role of water vapour is more complicated; it is the most potent greenhouse gas, but also the least persistent. Scientists have yet to work out how levels of water vapour react to variations in C02 levels.

The 'we can't alter the climate; it's much bigger than us' argument isn't very good. We have added a huge amount of C02 in the atmosphere (and the rate of change in C02 levels is unprecedented) via a combination of burnig collosal amounts of fossile fuels and clearing billions of acres of vegetation). This HAS to have an effect.

I believe that global warming is occuring because of human activities and that it will lead to more adverse climate change in the future. The decision is between trying to change our behaviour (unlikely) or adaptng to the consequences of it (more likely, if not as desirable).

[Malachi]

A major volcano (i.e. Krakatoa size) would throw enough sulphur dioxide (= acid rain) and other aerosols (fancy word for dirt) in the atmosphere to cool global average temp by a couple of degrees centigrade, but the effect would be temporary and we would back to normal warming after a few years.

It would take a civilisation threatening event like a super-volcano or an asteroid impact to counter what humans have added to the greenhouse effect.

[Fritz]

Cows farting causes more damage to the ozone layer than every car on the planet being left running 24/7.

[The Rev Peter Sarkey]

Cows farting causes more damage to the ozone layer than every car on the planet being left running 24/7.

I'm sure you're follow that up with something substantial..??

[Fritz]

Global warming/cooling is a natural cycle. All this, "Ozone layer damage", is just scaremongering political nonsense.

Mankind will never be more powerful than Nature.

[Malachi]

Crap. Apart from the burning of trillions of tons of fossil fuels and the clearance of several billion acres of vegetation, what else can be responsible for increased CO2 levels?

I bet a few civil engineers would like to debate your 'mankind will always be less powerful than nature' nonsense.

[Fritz]

Mankind has onl existed on this planet for a very small time. What makes you think mankind is more powerful than nature?

PS: Civil Engineers have existed for only a short time compared to mankind.

PPS: I am a Civil Engineer.LOL.

[Malachi]

Who is more powerful than who is irrelevant, but I do know that humans are capable of doing long-term damage to the environment (including undesirable enhanced global warming by converting trillions of tons of fossilised carbon into atmospheric carbon dioxide and destroying carbon sinks)

[Mark Forskitt]

Mark,

As I see it the world's climate is changing.  However, there is credible argument that this is a cyclical event which is only being pushed on by some small amount by human activity.

If, for arguments sake, all human input is removed from the equation tomorrow, do you think it would make a notable difference on how quick the process would occur?

Is it not possible that a natural disaster, such as a super volcano eruption, could undo in a single violent moment a hundred years of good human behaviour?

Yes the climate is aways changing, and yes it it conceivable the changes could have happened without humans anyway. However the rate of change is phenomenal , unprecedented as far as I can tell from the literature. That suggests a new factor is present. I posit that factor is the human species. It is the rate of change that is also the biggest threat element.  The natural system cannot react quickly enough.  That is the big critical difference between the current situtation and previous ones.  We may be heading for runaway changes regardless of what we do npow. From my reading of the literature, no one knows for sure. What a risk to be taking.

If we removed all human input from the system how quickly would change occur. I don't know, but certainly the ecosystem has the quivalent of inertia/momentum.  Changes that have already happened will produce more effects until a stable state is reached. 

[David Rotherham]

Metaphors: Imagine a dinghy, rolling to the brink of capsize in a heavy swell, and then imagine what happens if the crew heel it over.  Or imagine it running before a gale, mast at breaking point, and then imagine what happens when they hoist an extra sail. Or just remember Aesop's tale of the overloaded camel, whose spine snapped under the weight of just one more straw.

My points being, that it is always  unwise to push anything naturally unstable or variable towards dangerous extremes, and that when you add to something that is going on anyway, you might not need to add very much to cause a crisis, if it was already near the limit .

[Res Nullius]

Thanks Mark,   I don't disagree with what you say but there seems to be so many unknowns and that is probably why sceptics scoff at greens.

In your opinion, would you say that change is occuring on a faster scale than, for instance, the Younger Dryas which was abrupt in its beginning and probably even more so at its end.  If my limited reading on the subject is correct, this mini- ice age was caused by global warming which melted the ice caps and dumped too much fresh water into the ocean causing the thermohaline circulation to stop or slow down too much.  It was quick, brutal and, to me, seems to be the likely outcome of todays global activity.

I am a firm believer in making our lives less wasteful for a number of very good reasons but I am not entirely convinced that we would make a great deal of difference to climate change.  If the climate is due a change, nothing will stop it.  We can grease the wheels of climate change but cannot stop it.

If there is a certain inevitability in the fact that sooner or later we (the earth, not necessarily the human race) will go into an ice age and back out again ad infinitum, should we not be planning to adapt to it?

We will never destroy this planet, only ourselves.  The planet will go on regardless.  However, we have nowhere else to go just yet so we need to work with it I suppose.

[Nick Palmer]

Thanks Mark,   I don't disagree with what you say but there seems to be so many unknowns and that is probably why sceptics scoff at greens.

In your opinion, would you say that change is occuring on a faster scale than, for instance, the Younger Dryas which was abrupt in its beginning and probably even more so at its end.  If my limited reading on the subject is correct, this mini- ice age was caused by global warming which melted the ice caps and dumped too much fresh water into the ocean causing the thermohaline circulation to stop or slow down too much.  It was quick, brutal and, to me, seems to be the likely outcome of todays global activity.

I am a firm believer in making our lives less wasteful for a number of very good reasons but I am not entirely convinced that we would make a great deal of difference to climate change.  If the climate is due a change, nothing will stop it.  We can grease the wheels of climate change but cannot stop it.

If there is a certain inevitability in the fact that sooner or later we (the earth, not necessarily the human race) will go into an ice age and back out again ad infinitum, should we not be planning to adapt to it?

We will never destroy this planet, only ourselves.  The planet will go on regardless.  However, we have nowhere else to go just yet so we need to work with it I suppose.

Sorry I haven't time at the mo to answer the points raised by posters above, I'll try and get back tomorrow but the vast majority of the "ideas" raised by the "it's not happening" or "it's nothing to do with us" posters above are unadulterated crap. They have been comprehensively shot down a million times already. The forces who are propagandising the public rely on the inertia of the internet and out of date books and articles where people constantly discover what they want to read because the idiots or liars or professional bullshitters never remove it. There are 100% solid scientific facts in this subject and, given a logical mind, it is possible to make definite statements that show an overwhelming case for strong action to reduce CO2 emissions