Author Topic: turning water into petrol?  (Read 4763 times)

Offline Deputy Dawg

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turning water into petrol?
« on: September 06, 2008, 12:40:17 PM »
I read this and had a larf. My Chemistry isn't brilliant but this does not sound correct...

http://water4gas.com/2books.htm?hop=eclipse123


Quote
Did you know that you can convert your car or truck to a water-burning vehicle (Water Hybrid)?

Water4Gas is a Do-It-Yourself, affordable and SIMPLE technology. Water is supplemental to gasoline or diesel fuel - I have doubled fuel economy (61 MPG) in my Toyota Corolla 1999, and many more have doubled or even tripled their mileage. Too good to be true? Read on...


Online danrok

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Re: turning water into petrol?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2008, 02:09:24 PM »

Offline Fritz

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Re: turning water into petrol?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2008, 02:18:17 PM »
Hydrogen technology has been around for a very long time. It,s only the Oil Companies that have supressed it.

Oil companies have been buying patents from hydrogen engine developers since the 60,s.

Online danrok

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Re: turning water into petrol?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2008, 02:21:55 PM »
How about a BMW 7 Series powered by hydrogen?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/new_car_reviews/article3250623.ece

£5m each? I'll take 2...  ;D

Offline Fritz

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Re: turning water into petrol?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2008, 02:31:06 PM »
The first digital watch probably cost as much at the development stage. They ended up giving them away free with various products.

Offline Paternoster

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Re: turning water into petrol?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2008, 02:09:00 PM »
You must have to put energy in somewhere - you don't get something for nothing in physics.

Offline Pomme de terre

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Re: turning water into petrol?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2008, 03:23:35 PM »
They require a shedload of electricity to create the hydrogen, don't they?

Offline Jack

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Water as a source for power
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2008, 09:48:10 AM »
As a chemist, the balanced equation for this reaction is:

2H2O - 2H2+O2

It has been known for a very long time, but suppressed!

You can burn Water as fuel in any internal combustion engine, the water is split by electrolysis prior to being introduced to the combustion chamber, the spark plug ignites the mixture as if it was petrol.

The nicest thing of all, the product of combustion is mainly water...
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Online danrok

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Re: turning water into petrol?
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2008, 10:14:17 AM »
They require a shedload of electricity to create the hydrogen, don't they?

I believe so.  But, most large power grids have big surpluses of electricity.  Jersey uses some of France's surplus, for example.

So, you could put surplus electricity to good use, by generating hydrogen from water, and using that to power cars.  The cars would be totally clean, and non-polluting.

Offline Malachi

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Re: turning water into petrol?
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2008, 10:51:27 AM »
You can use electricity to separate the hydrogen and oxygen in water and then re-combust them in engines etc., but the trick is finding a cheap/abundant/clean/whatever source of electricity. Nobody has found one yet, which is one of the reasons why hydrogen powered vehicles have yet to enter mass production.

Anyone who thinks that you can electrolyse water and then use the products to power an engine indefinitely without needing a constant suppy of electricity from elsewhere is either deluded or a liar.

Offline Jack

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Hydrogen Technology
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2008, 12:52:41 PM »
Malachi, its already fact, although not fed into an internal combustion engine, but as a source of electrical energy to run an electric powered car:

Genepax - Report by Reuters -You Tube Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrxfMz2eDME

Genepax Japan official website: http://www.genepax.co.jp/en/

Water technology will be the future...
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 01:07:29 PM by Jack »
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Offline Malachi

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Re: turning water into petrol?
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2008, 01:21:23 PM »
Nope. It is a(nother) scam.

You can use either use chemical or electrical processes (which consume energy) to split water into its components so that they can then be recombined/reformed (which liberates energy) in a way that generates electrical or mechanical power. However, the process of splitting water will always require more energy than that the amount which is generated by reforming it = whatever chemical or electrical source that you are using for the splitting needs to be replenished.

Of course it is possible to make a car that 'runs' on water, but not one that never needs to be replenished with metal hydrides or recharged with electricity etc. The Genepax Water Car is merely a vehicle with chemical batteries instead of electrical ones.

Online danrok

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Re: turning water into petrol?
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2008, 01:41:34 PM »
Doesn't have any of the usual scam hallmarks.  They even say that they don't want any money!

Seems the current drawback of that water energy box is that it costs about £10,000.  Before you've even bought a car. But, they claim the cost could be reduced, if it were mass produced.

Offline Jack

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Hydrogen Technology
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2008, 03:14:42 PM »
I suspect the Genepax technology utilises an acid-base reaction, see the Brønsted-Lowry definition of this at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid-base_reaction_theories

The Genepax Water Car is merely a vehicle with chemical batteries instead of electrical ones.

Malachi, all batteries are based on chemical reactions to produce electricity...

Although, you may agree Michael Faraday's Homopolar Generator (copper disc rotating within a static magnetic field) is a bit of an anomaly.   ;D
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 03:39:20 PM by Jack »
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Online danrok

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Re: turning water into petrol?
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2008, 10:11:50 AM »
I've asked an engineer about this Genepax thing and his response is:

Rather cynically I think this works as follows:

1. Declare breakthrough in energy-from-water
2. Mop up venture capital
3. ????
4. PROFIT!

Technically, all chemical energy sources rely on the idea that the absolute enthalpy (H) of the chemicals driving the reaction is greater than that of the chemicals at the end of the reaction.

H(reactants) - H(products) = dH, where dH is the difference in energy, which is what (Watt?) you can use. Efficiency of an energy source is the fraction of dH that is not heat.

Now your reactant here is water. Your product here is also water. For one mole of water then:

H(water) - H(water) = dH = 0 J/mol. No net energy output. Whatever you do, however you crack and recombine the water, if the input and the output are both water, there is NO net energy output. The mechanism they've posted is thermodynamically impossible.

If they get energy out of that suspiciously familiar-looking setup, then it's because the catalyst membranes aren't just catalysts. I'd put money on the left-side catalyst membrane being different from the right-side catalyst. The electrolyte layer is the giveaway.

They've made a battery - a plain, simple, Voltaic pile. Just like a car battery. Only they've dropped it in water to make it fizz.

The alternative would be that the can convert tiny amounts of mass directly to energy. As the Earth apparently still exists, I think this is a fairly low probability.